Brian Nystrom Posted October 10, 2005 Share Posted October 10, 2005 I agree with you completely, Nick. That said, I feel it's important to note that VCP boats have varied in their layups over the years. Older boats are as you describe, CSM with tinted resin on the inside layer of Diolene, though there have been several variations (My '98 Anas Acuta had clear resin inside with a thick cloth/CSM/Diolene layup but my '01 AA has tinted resin over a thinner CSM/Diolene layup). Later model boats I've seen have clear resin and woven cloth inside, though CSM is still used. The current layups from VSK (Valley Canoe Products has recently become Valley Sea Kayaks) are woven cloth with CSM only in areas where its ability to conform to tight curves is beneficial. Specifically, the deck fittings, compass recesses and such are CSM. It may be used in other areas as well, but I don't have any details on that. Although their standard fiberglass layup is still done by hand, their higher-end layups are now vacuum resin-infused. It appears that Valley has made significant improvements to their layups in recent years and the current products should equal the major North American brands in layup quality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Straz_Kayaks Posted October 10, 2005 Share Posted October 10, 2005 I thought I'd chime in with some yacht building experience. Chopped Strand Mat (CSM) is not intended to be used as a structural element, but primarily as a medium to prevent "print-through" of subsequent layers of knitted or woven material from transfering through the gelcoat. I just worked on a carbon/kevlar P&H Quest that had a layer of mat between the gelcoat and carbon, even with that thin layer, the weave of the carbon/kevlar layer still was apparent in the gelcoat. Gelcoat is the devil! Unfortunately it is viewed as a necessity in kayak construction. Typically it is sprayed into a hull mold, allowed to partially cure and then laminated on top off. Try to invision spraying 15 mils (a very thin coating) of gelcoat into the deep, narrow bow and stern mold cavities of a kayak. It is very difficult and you consistantly end up with "puddling" along the keel and skeg boxes. I'm certain that people here have seen the cracking and chipping that occurs due to the puddling effect. I have yet to see a sea kayak without this problem. I was quite pleased when I spoke with Bill yesterday to learn that GRO and Valley are committed to replacing the kayak. Tim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poncho Posted October 10, 2005 Share Posted October 10, 2005 British food isn't any good either. Ponch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nick Schade Posted October 10, 2005 Share Posted October 10, 2005 I haven't seen the new layups from Valley, but I have seen a nice pre-preg layup on a P&H sea kayak. Now all we need is NDK to get with the program. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Nystrom Posted October 11, 2005 Share Posted October 11, 2005 Peter Orton, the new president of Valley Sea Kayaks, was at P&H for 13 years. Another key member of the new team (who's name escapes me) also came from P&H. I've had a few email conversations with Peter and he's obviously very customer oriented and quality conscious, and I get the impression that he understands what VSK needs to do to be a major player in the US market. The company has been making smart moves for the past few years and Peter seems to be accellerating the pace of progress. I agree about NDK, but I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for them to get it together. Their problems are obviously at the top and it will take new management - or at the very least, a new management philosophy - to turn things around. Perhaps the best thing would be for them to finally go "belly up" and sell the molds to a company that actually knows how to build quality kayaks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Nystrom Posted October 11, 2005 Share Posted October 11, 2005 Patrick is considering building a more mainstream, "Explorer-esque" sea kayak, but his company is essentially a one-man operation and he has a new baby and other projects in the works. One can only imagine what the result of the right design combined with Tideline's layup, a 40 pound kayak that handles rough water like a champ and bounces off rocks like a plastic boat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Sylvester Posted October 12, 2005 Share Posted October 12, 2005 Brian, That was uncalled for on a public forum such as this. Why don't you give this a break and go find some rough water to play in....... Paul Sylvester, NDK Explorer NDK Greenlander Pro Valley Avocet RBA Cunningham sk 94 cheater boat Double 3 WW boats Mill creek.......all powered by $300 Lendal paddles........ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dee Hall Posted October 12, 2005 Share Posted October 12, 2005 . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Nystrom Posted October 12, 2005 Share Posted October 12, 2005 Did I say anything that was offensive or untrue? "go find some rough water to play in......." Hopefully, on Sunday with Nigel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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