Farmer John ?/Hydroskin Pants ?

[alcoons]

Hi.

Need general suggestions for what to consider when buying a Farmer John. NRS seems to only sell 3 mm. When I called EMS they suggested those were too thick for the flexibility need for kayaking.

What features would you considered "essential"? Zippered ankles? Pads? What features would be "nice" to have?

Thanks in advance,

Al

[Jill]

Not sure where the person from EMS is coming from but a 3mm farmer john style wetsuit is perfectly fine and flexible enough for kayaking when the water is cold. Many kayakers use wetsuits of that weight. It would not be suitable for winter when only a dry suit will do. That said, I have found that I don't use my wetsuit much, but rather use my lightweight (hydroskin in NRS terms) neoprene clothing until it is too cold and then go directly to the dry suit. This isn't because the 3mm farmer john isn't suitable, it is just that I find the drysuit more comfortable for me.

I have friends that love the 2mm NRS Rodeo Pant. I'm also hooked on the NRS Mystery shirt, which I've found extremely comfortable by itself or under a paddling jacket.

[ski_hike_paddle]

nothing against EMS, but 3mm is NOT too thick. i have been using a 3mm for 10 years. especially useful for spring and fall. i will certainly admit that a 3mm full farmer john can be a bit much in july and august, but that is what 2mm shorties are for.

w.r.t. features ... i have ankle zips and full front zip and don't think i could live w/out them. don't have any experience with pads.

steve

[ccarlson]

3mm seems to be the gold standard for paddling wetsuits. Ankle zippers really help with the on/off process and, of course, a front zipper vs. rear zipper. I would also strongly suggest a relief zipper or long 2-way front entry zipper which will accomplish the same thing. Nothing like struggling out of a paddle jacket or, even worse, a drytop in order to unzip and remove the wetsuit in order to answer nature's call.

Good luck!

[kate]

I have to agree, I used my wetsuit so rarely that I finally gave it away. Much prefer Hydroskin and fuzzy rubber for the shoulder seasons, and then drytop/suit for cold weather.

kate

[alcoons]

>I have to agree, I used my wetsuit so rarely that I finally

>gave it away. Much prefer Hydroskin and fuzzy rubber for the

>shoulder seasons, and then drytop/suit for cold weather.

>

>kate

Kate...when you say drytop/suit what do you mean by "suit"?

Thanks,

Al

[scamlin]

Al:

Yep, 3mm is standard and for good reason: it's the minimum you need in water colder that 60 degrees. The flexibility issue is really not an factor with Farmer John's since the arms are unencumbered. A Farmer John covers the torso and groin, two regions vulnerable to chilling. A full wetsuit jacket may be suitable for rafting or winter surfing/windsurfing, but not paddling.

One reason NRS wetsuits are a standard (I recommend them highly) is that the two-way zipper goes WAY down, making relief while wearing a PFD and spray skirt, even in a boat, a simple process. NRS also has a an Expedition Jane model with a strategically placed relief zipper that women rave about.

Be aware, however, that any Farmer John solves the flexibility problem by creating another: flushing of cold water around the armpits, down the back, etc. That's why a Farmer John--any wetsuit for that matter--needs to have a TIGHT fit. It should feel a bit like a corset or girdle: a bit springly and without gaps. And why it won't really protect you unless you have a way to minimize the flushing around your torso. A paddle jacket or drytop with good seals on the wrists and neck will do this. They won't keep you dry once you go swimming in a capsize (the waist is always a weak point) but even if the suit gets flooded, the jacket/drytop will allow that water to warm up and keep you relatively safe (though not warm).

I have four or five hydroskin garmets and wear them all summer. But while comfortable, Hydroskin is only .5 mm of neoprene and will not give anywhere near the protection from hypothermia as 3 mm. It's simple physics. Ditto for the fleece alternatives such as Henderson: they simply are not substitutes for 3mm neoprene IN THE WATER. Don't believe the claims.

Remember also that almost all wetsuit neoprene has a outer nylon skin. Nylon is a great evaporator of water and wet neoprene will chill rapidly (latent heat for the technical types), which is why wetsuits are not great cold weather gear in the air. (Urethane coated neoprene such as the NRS Mystery Shirt Jill cites is an exception). This is not an issue in the water, the main concern of paddlers, but can be an issue if you depend soley on a wetsuit to keep you warm while in the boat.

Case in point: over Labor Day, I was surprised to get mildly hypothermic on a sunny afternoon in the 60's wearing a long sleeve NRS Hydroskin top under a PFD. The water was over 70 degrees, but all it took was a few mild splashes and a 10-12+ KT wind for two hours. My fingers were so numb, I could barely fasten the straps on my roof rack after the paddle. A polyester base layer would have helped; a paddle jacket over the Hydroskin would have been even better. The key is to get a windproof layer over the neoprene for the wind; neoprene is designed chiefly to limit heat loss in the water.

[kate]

Dry suits come in two (or more) configurations: one piece or a top and bottom which "seal" together. I have the top and bottom, so I can wear just the top along with something lighter (fuzzy rubber) on the bottom, or I can wear both to have a complete suit. I like the versatility, but it is bulkier around the middle (where the two pieces meet) than a one-piece suit. Of course, wearing the top with the fuzzyrubber pants means there is not complete dryness, but at this time of year that isn't a problem for me.

kate

[Brian Nystrom]

The two piece combinations are notorious for leaking. The overlap in the center must be carefully arranged and even then, leaks will occur. While it's arguably a better combination than a dry top and farmer John for short term exposure, it's not as good as a one piece suit.

[kate]

Sure, the two-piece can leak. But in practical terms, in my experience, it isn't significant or life-threatening. I've used mine for 10 years, almost entirely for whitewater but also in seakayaking. Sorry to say, I've had a few river swims in that time, in some very swirly water. But the two-piece has not left me wet. The seal works remarkably well (this is in a Kokotat and using a neoprene skirt, can't speak for other configurations).

Both styles are functional. It's a matter of what you want to do with your gear.

kate

[Dee Hall]

I used this combination for the first fall/winter/spring that I kayaked. I never had any leakage including during trip leader training. Yes, you have to roll it up carefully, and the drytop I use has a neoprene inner tunnel that seals much better than a nylon inner tunnel. I also have a neoprene tunnel on the skirt and the outer tunnel of the drytop is neoprene.

Pros:

I already had the drytop, and the non-breathable Navarro bib was purchased for significantly less than $100 from New England Small Craft. I found the bulk to be a bit more comfortable than the front zipper on a drysuit.

Cons:

Rolling them up together is a careful process that can't be rushed. I added some velcro to both sides which helped a lot. Lack of a relief zipper means taking the whole thing apart when the need arises.

Still a far better solution for cold weather than a farmer john + drytop.

[alcoons]

Thanks for all of your advice.

I am now the proud owner of a pair of NRS Hydroskin G2 pants to go along with my waterproof paddle jacket with excellent neck and sleeve closures (neoprene).

The Hydroskin pants do not have a reinforced bottom or knees. Do you wear anything over them or just go with them as is?

Thanks again,

Al