What to wear under your dry suit

[Suz]

In anticipation of the cold water workshop on Saturday, Nov. 10, I would like people to start sharing what they wear under their dry suit so that people new to wearing a dry suit will know what to bring to the cold water workshop so they will be comfie when trying out the dry suits.

Personally, I go with a layering approach that I use for skiing. All my long undies are some sort of fleece. I wear no cotton, no nylon and no undies that have cotton crotch liners or with elastic (as that is usually nylon). If you feel the need to wear undies, buy ones that are cool max or made for exercise.

I don't choose bulky or thick fleece. My preference is for the thinner weights and add a layer as I get cold.

During the dry suit season, I generally wear my first layer of fleece to the launch and have available wind proof shells top/bottom for readying the boat. I would only wear my dry suit to the launch if I am traveling less than 15 minutes or so.

I use the boat prep time to suss out if I need more layers. Sometimes I will throw on a fleece vest or another top. When really cold, I will add another layer on the bottom. I keep handy thin fleece gloves to slip on - I like the ones that have fingerless fingers inside a mitt that flips over. These will remain in the car for when I get back.

On my feet, I wear Smartwool socks under the Gore-Tex booties of the dry suit. Over that I will wear either my wet suit booties or if really cold, my Chota Mukluks.

My favorite undergarment is a one piece liner that the butt zip matches to the butt zip of the dry suit so it makes pee breaks easier.

Any one else have any ideas or suggestions?

Suz

[Shaila_27]

This is very helpful info for those of us who are new to cold water paddling:)

Thanks!

[kate]

Agree with everything you said, Suz. Wow, underwear with a zipper, where'd you find that? Doesn't get too bulky, two zippers at the butt?

My only additional comment is to plug SmartWool long undies. I am a recent and fanatical convert. Perfect first layer and in cool (not cold) weather all that is needed. No bulk and warm like a heater. Doesn't stink afterwards. Looks good too (go for the plum color), you can wear it to the put-in and be stylin'. We all know how important that is.

Kate

[wilsoj2]

Nice detailed description. I think one of the things to keep in mind is that the dry suiit keeps you dry, but does not supply warmth.

My favorite for cold water is a wicking/rash guard base layer and a Polartec union suit. My favorite is the MEC as it has triple pull zipper which extends all the way around to the tail bone. The upper most zipper pull is encased in plastic the other two are rounded so as to not abraid the dry suit membrane. Good socks - smart wool. Alpaca, or Polartec, are essential.

Hands, head, and neck are also important. Remember good gloves (I like DeepSee Comfort Dry Gloves.) Also remembering when protecting your head from cold that you need to protect your neck as well. I have a Mystery Hood which I supplement with a Henderson Ice Diving hood when the water temps dip below 40f.

[rick stoehrer]

This is very helpful info for those of us who are new to cold water paddling:)

Thanks!

coupla idle thoughts on the topic where some might be new to the activity....

shirt/shorts vs dry top vs wetsuit vs drysuit

it comes down to water temperature and how long you might be in the water doesn't it? last weekend up in casco it was 70+ degree's and the water temp was in the mid 50's....so while the water was certainly cold enough to warrant more, we went with just rash guards as we realistically wouldn't be spending too much time in the water....but for the most part, you gotta have something on now...

wetsuits - first few years wore only a farmer john and then a drytop when it got cold (paddled up to late november) and then that was it. in retrospect, probably would re-think that. while the drytop snugged up really well and little water got to my core, my legs were exposed and any time in the water impacted my temp.

drysuits - yeah. dry. that's s biggie. layering the wicking layers is pretty key - a drysuit doesn't "breathe" as quickly as you might perspire. consequently, that thin inner layer will draw the moisture away from you and then the outter layer where the material meets the fabric of the dry suit gets a bit damp. no biggie - you stay warm and dry!

for folks with no socks on their drysuits...don't you wish you'da asked BEFORE you made that purchase? i had a suit sans booties and pretty much hated that thing...and it was too narrow anyways....for the sockless going with wool sock and mukluks....you'll be less comfy. and i think that you can get socks aftermarket...you might wanna look into it.

nothing vs gloves vs pogies

nothing - when are your hands cold? if it doesn't bother you and you can do everything you need to do, then don't fix it, it ain't broken.

pogies - pogies are sorta like mittens that encompass your hands and then wrap around the paddle loom...and they warm your hands up fast, fast fast! often, you'll end up wearing only one and wrapping the other around the loom cause otherwise it's too much (not sure why physiologically this is, but it seems to be). while your hands will still get wet, the wind is kept off your hands so there is no evaporative cooling (hence, warm, warm, warm) and you can still feel the paddle cause there's nothing between you and the loom. the big disadvantage to pogies is that 1 - you might feel like your hands are "trapped" in there if you need to take your hands offa the paddle and that 2 - if you do take your hands out of the pogies and need to open a hatch or whatever...hey, it's cold out! so if it's cold and your hands are wet and the wind is blowing, you can loose manual dexterity very quickly. (yet another great reason to tie off the hatches...if the hatches are tied off and your hands are essentailly frozen claws, you can probably still manage to lift the hatch from the tie down as opposed to the nearly impossibel task of getting that icy appendage to pry up the hatch from the rim....ooohh, that hurts and often you can't do it!)

gloves - lotsa options here...thin, thick, neo, rubber. i wear thin neo gloves with leather (or naugahyde or whatever the hell it is) pads and then if it's still cold...on go the aforementioned pogies. thicker gloves prohibit me from feeling the paddle and i don't like that at all!

hats? wear one. fleece, wool, neo. even a thin hat will help you retain your body heat. and so what if your hat gets wet? just wear one that'll work when it's wet.

hypo kit - think stuff you'd ski in - again with the layers - silk/fleece/wind and waterproof outer layers, thicker hats. warm gloves/mittens. hand warmers. i am an extra large and so my hypo gear fits 95% of other folks (notable exceptions being mike crouse / jason / walter and assorted other large marine mammals) and that's something to think about too...you have clothes for you but do you have clothes for the "other guy"? an extra hat?

what about shelters? have one? obviously you might need to get out of the wind so what land feature is handy? if nothing is handy and it's just you and your mates (and you'd never do this alone, right) and the windswept beach, do you know how to make a wind break out of the boats? it isn't much, but it's better than nothing.

water/food - something hot to drink (non caffeinated - hot tang is AWESOME - it's what angels taste like) and then a bit to eat. think about how reassuring and nice it is to have something hot to drink and bit of cookie (or mint cake, anyone ever have mint cake? that's what some other angels taste like)...personally i think there's a lot to be said for the psychological benefits of taking a time out, getting warm, regrouping over a spot of piping hot angels, err...tang and cookies. gives you time to calm down...soothing..."how bad can it be? let's think about this..."

and hypothermia - know the symptoms, know how to deal and know when to call it in....remember too that it's easier to stay warm than to get warm.

as ever, float plans, radios, cell phones, flares...all the elements that should go into a summer paddle should really, really go into a fall/winter paddle as the environment can pose more of a risk. all the smart things you can do to keep yourself safe, the better. it's just a big game of "what if's" and margins sometimes...better to answer as many of those questions and widen those margins as far as you can before you and the boat get wet.

as ever, the best piece of gear you can use is the one at the end of your neck!

have fun - don't turn blue!

[Guest mike_crouse]

Layering is a great approach, but a one piece fleece "jump suit" is highly advisable. Before I had a one piece suit I would always get get a cold spot around my waist where the layers wouldn't overlap. I once had the brilliant idea or wearing several light layers and overlapping all of them to avoid cold spots. Getting through the layers through the relief zipper was a nightmare!

I would listen to what Suz said, and go with a light or medium one piece suit and have some additional layers available.

Having extra warm gear for those breaks on shore is a must, a large pullover that fits over your pfd, a fleece hat (or two or three), etc....

[bob budd]

wetsuits

Roger Pollock has a "full body" wetsuit he really likes. Gets you a few more months without a dry suit.

drysuits

Semi-dry suits were mentioned earlier. In my opinion they are a bad idea. Even though they are cheaper and perhaps more comfortable hypothermia is both more expensive and uncomfortable.

...socks on their drysuits...

If you can choose Gore-Tex or similar breathable material it is worth it. Nothing like damp/wet feet (due to sweat accumulation - the suits breath remarkably well) at the put-in on a cold day.

...gloves...

Dry gloves may reduce dexterity. Try intricate operations such as picking your nose.

...hats...

I'd go with a hood, wont' blow or otherwise fall off. Protects the neck and ears better. When you shop you should consider how well you can hear with the hood on.

...hypo kit...

Think about packing the bag so the things you are most likely to use or use first end up at the top.

...shelters...

A cagoule is a great single-person shelter that you will use on windy days in warmer months. Consider opening your dry suit zipper to allow some drying at stops.

[Gcosloy]

Semi-dry suits were mentioned earlier. In my opinion they are a bad idea. Even though they are cheaper and perhaps more comfortable hypothermia is both more expensive and uncomfortable.

Semi dry suits and tops are a reasonable choice if you intend to limit your paddling season to from late spring to late fall, which may include a majority of folks. A semi-dry with farmer John fleece underneath can keep you comfortable in the air and much warmer than with a wet-suit in cold water. The plunge neo neck is comfortable for those who can't tolerate latex on their neck. I supplement tnis with a small Mystery Hood which used either with the hood on or off seals the neck neo almost perfectly. In either case the amount of water allowed entrance is no more than a tablespoon. Repeated rolls and this could be a limiting factor. However if all you're concerned about is avoiding hypo after an unplanned swim, the semi dry is a reasonable alternative for those of us not interested in going out in more extreme conditions. I've had one for 3 seasons now and am very pleased with mine.

[thief]

underneath i wear a IR union suit thick skin for cold....and an ir thin skin for warmer waters....

i also love their hybrid skin....it is a shirt that is fleece with long seeves...but at the bicep the fleece switches over to a thinner fleecey material so that your forearms are not as bulky..but still very warm!

i also just got a pair of Lochsa fleece pants on ebay...nice...smooth outer finish.....

r

[JohnHuth]

Thermal regulation is a bear.

My biggest problem is sweating. The Inuit have a saying "If you sweat, you die" - but if I dress for 50 degree water, and it's 90 degress out (like it was one day at Bar Harbor), it's pretty tough not to. I've literally poured maybe a liter of sweat out of my drysuit on on occasion - at first I thought it was a leak, but it was just the accumulated sweat.

So - a typical problem I had - the day seems warm enough, and I wear just a layer of thermals underneath my drysuit. By mid morning, I'm drenched in sweat - no problem, I'm still warm from my muscles working.

Then, we halt for lunch, and a breeze comes up. Despite the the goretex, the wind and sweat conspire to get me cold. Do I layer up? Or...since I know I'm going to be going out on the water again, should keep on what I have, figuring I'll warm up as soon as I start to paddle.

In this case, I elected to get a little chilled by the wind, but put on a wind breaking top, and then I did warm up once I started to paddle, but I was really scratching my head about what to do. Still am, really. (I had fleece in my front compartment in a dry bag, so I could've gone to it, but I really didn't want socks full of sweat-water).

[bob budd]

Forgot to mention. If you don't have flat seam on your fleece you can turn them inside out to reduce chafing. Credit a former (NSPN) president with this one.

[rick stoehrer]

Thermal regulation is a bear.

My biggest problem is sweating. The Inuit have a saying "If you sweat, you die" - but if I dress for 50 degree water, and it's 90 degress out (like it was one day at Bar Harbor), it's pretty tough not to. I've literally poured maybe a liter of sweat out of my drysuit on on occasion - at first I thought it was a leak, but it was just the accumulated sweat.

So - a typical problem I had - the day seems warm enough, and I wear just a layer of thermals underneath my drysuit. By mid morning, I'm drenched in sweat - no problem, I'm still warm from my muscles working.

Then, we halt for lunch, and a breeze comes up. Despite the the goretex, the wind and sweat conspire to get me cold. Do I layer up? Or...since I know I'm going to be going out on the water again, should keep on what I have, figuring I'll warm up as soon as I start to paddle.

In this case, I elected to get a little chilled by the wind, but put on a wind breaking top, and then I did warm up once I started to paddle, but I was really scratching my head about what to do. Still am, really. (I had fleece in my front compartment in a dry bag, so I could've gone to it, but I really didn't want socks full of sweat-water).

yup. i have a onsie suit by marmot that has the zippers and the polarfleece and the spandex and the...and the....and i can't wear it unless it's pretty chilly. it's just too hot for me to wear as a layer beneath a dry suit unless i figure on a fair amount of immersion and then it is suh-weet. nothing exposed, no clothes riding up anywhere...nice.

as a rule of thumb, if i'm a little cold before a paddle, that's good - once i get moving, i'll be comfy....but then yeah, you do have a problem if you end up in the drink cause then you'll be even colder than you were just getting your gear prepped on the beach....does present a quandary.

again, i guess it comes down to how much time do you realistically think you'll end up spending in the drink? if you're going out with a buncha friends that are all solid and everyone is comfy with rescues and your rolls are spot on...then probably little danger of you spending a whole lotta time immersed. now...same thing and some stuff to play in? might consider dressing warmer. no roll? might dress warmer....stuff like that.

same thing with stopping...was warm, now standing on the beach, cold. throw the cag over the whole thing and keep the wind off of you - you'll warm right up. again, easier to stay warm than to get warm.

[Suz]

Agree with everything you said, Suz. Wow, underwear with a zipper, where'd you find that? Doesn't get too bulky, two zippers at the butt?

My only additional comment is to plug SmartWool long undies. I am a recent and fanatical convert. Perfect first layer and in cool (not cold) weather all that is needed. No bulk and warm like a heater. Doesn't stink afterwards. Looks good too (go for the plum color), you can wear it to the put-in and be stylin'. We all know how important that is.

Kate

Kokatat makes a one piece - both mens and womens. The womens runs small and although I wear a medium in all else they make, this piece I buy a large. It is called a Polartec Liner. The mens version has a front two way zipper and the womens has a butt zip that is like an upside down smile that matches the drysuit zip. The fleece zip is really small. I will have one at the workshop you can take a look.

It is only available in black. Although I like all my long undies to be dark so that I can wash all of them together. I wouldn't buy white long underwear for that reason.

I'm glad to hear you love the Smartwool long undies. I have heard others complain that they don't last long enough as the lighter weight ones are very thin (although comfie).

Suz

[Suz]

Thermal regulation is a bear.

My biggest problem is sweating. The Inuit have a saying "If you sweat, you die" - but if I dress for 50 degree water, and it's 90 degress out (like it was one day at Bar Harbor), it's pretty tough not to. I've literally poured maybe a liter of sweat out of my drysuit on on occasion - at first I thought it was a leak, but it was just the accumulated sweat.

John- you hit the nail on the head on this one. Best piece of advice I was give years ago on my first winter paddle with Mike Sabin. Air temp was about 20 and the water about 40 and I get warm fast. (I think it is all the hair on my head!) Mike said go slow, don't speed up and get over heated. Regulate your activities to match.

I will say that you should take a look at the fiber content of your long undies. Check to be sure there is no nylon. Nylon holds water and so will keep it next to you instead of wicking. Also be sure that your layers are close so that they can wick. I have worn a rash guard and a outer core (Kokatat's heavier layer) and when I take off my drysuit, the back and chest are damp but the inside rash guard is dry. MAGIC!

Personally I tend to overheat easily too and the first thing I forego are gloves and a hat. I keep them stowed between my pfd and my body so that I can pull them out easily as needed. As soon as I stop, I need to put the cag over all to keep the wind off.

Suz

[PeterB]

“Having extra warm gear for those breaks on shore is a must, a large pullover that fits over your pfd, a fleece hat (or two or three), etc....”

Absolutely! I have rarely felt cold while paddling, if anything have felt overdressed, but as soon as one stops paddling and takes a break, chilling occurs. A cag is a must for rest stops during cold weather paddling! The Kokatat & GRO ones (I have a Valley/GRO cag) are definitely way-cool, but one doesn’t have to own a kayak-specific cag: any oversized parka or jacket that you can put on over your pfd will work okay. But make sure you have something.

“what about shelters? have one? “

A storm shelter is another must! (says this paddler who doesn't yet have one! Mine is on order from Georgia: For now,I make do with a ripstop nylon tarp, which doubles as an emergency bivvy aid) During a wilderness first aid course, we did hypothermia drills, and when you put a hypothermic person inside a storm shelter with two or three persons, it really works! the space turns very toasty very fast, needs to be experienced to be believed...

A storm shelter can be more than an emergency/life saving kit item: it can be pulled out at lunch stops on raw windy days all year long, (it stuffs into a small bag, can be deployed or put away in seconds) and if a paddler ends up swimming, they can be warmed up with a strom shelter during a quick break on the beach

With all the attention on drysuits and body protection, don’t forget head protection , as the initial shock of cold water immersion can be severe.

I love my Kokatat balaclava fleece lined hood; very comfortable, snug enough that during a three or four second immersion (your typical capsize & roll set-up) water trickles in but that initial shock of cold water on your head is neutralized. Perhaps not recommended for extensive mid-winter rolling practice, but very functional for my typical cold weather paddling needs.

[Pintail]

By the way, if anyone should be lucky enough to find a Kokatat drysuit on sale and it has no bootees, then do not let that fact put you off: Kokatat are always ready and willing to attache said bootees for a very modest sum. My first drysuit (yes: I found it on sale) had neither bootees nor relief zipper: the manufacturers were fast and efficient and they are most friendly folks with whom to deal.

[rcohn]

I supplement with a Henderson Ice Diving hood when the water temps dip below 40f.

This is the first time I've seen someone else using an ice cap. The may look a little strange but they work well. If used under a diver's or tuilik hood it will really keep the water leakage to a minimum.

Ralph

[wilsoj2]

This is the first time I've seen someone else using an ice cap. The may look a little strange but they work well. If used under a diver's or tuilik hood it will really keep the water leakage to a minimum.

Ralph

The Ice Cap is a god send!

We've been using dive suppliers for a few years for an amount of our cold weather gear. The Deep Sea gloves and the Henderson Ice Cap both come from such shops.

[JohnHuth]

Peter -

Are you getting one of those fancy-schmancy shelters that Dale Williams sells? I got one - love it...although I haven't had to use it in any emergencies.

John H.

[PeterB]

Peter -

Are you getting one of those fancy-schmancy shelters that Dale Williams sells? I got one - love it...although I haven't had to use it in any emergencies.

John H.

Yes, that's the one. There are others like it but this one compresses into a quite small pouch, the size of a small melon.

http://www.seakayakingusa.com/gear.htm#shelters

[thief]

Yes, that's the one. There are others like it but this one compresses into a quite small pouch, the size of a small melon.

http://www.seakayakingusa.com/gear.htm#shelters

i have one of those too....i saw peter cassons vcp one and grabbed one of dales....

i also have a dana designs Hat-tarp....a tarp that has a 2 side zipper...fold it in half then zip two sides and you have a silnylon bivy sack.....

r

[RogerPollock]

John,

Totally with you on the sweating/cooling thing . . . the worst feeling . . . the cag helps a little . . . but it seems the only thing that really clinches it is to outright change your thermals at lunch/break time, which is a miserable operation that exposes you to the cold, but man, does it feel better and warmer to get some nice, dry stuff on.

Actually, though, last year we kept out winter day trips short such that we didn't do lunch or a real break, so it wasn't a problem, thank God.

For the record, was plenty warm, at times too warm, in my 4/3 full wetsuit during a playboat outing with lots of rolling and splashing, with no concern whatsoever for soggy, heavy, sweaty thermals. Quite nice, actually.

Thermal regulation is a bear.

My biggest problem is sweating. The Inuit have a saying "If you sweat, you die" - but if I dress for 50 degree water, and it's 90 degress out (like it was one day at Bar Harbor), it's pretty tough not to. I've literally poured maybe a liter of sweat out of my drysuit on on occasion - at first I thought it was a leak, but it was just the accumulated sweat.

So - a typical problem I had - the day seems warm enough, and I wear just a layer of thermals underneath my drysuit. By mid morning, I'm drenched in sweat - no problem, I'm still warm from my muscles working.

Then, we halt for lunch, and a breeze comes up. Despite the the goretex, the wind and sweat conspire to get me cold. Do I layer up? Or...since I know I'm going to be going out on the water again, should keep on what I have, figuring I'll warm up as soon as I start to paddle.

In this case, I elected to get a little chilled by the wind, but put on a wind breaking top, and then I did warm up once I started to paddle, but I was really scratching my head about what to do. Still am, really. (I had fleece in my front compartment in a dry bag, so I could've gone to it, but I really didn't want socks full of sweat-water).

[shewhorn]

Doesn't seem to matter how much or how little I wear... so long as I have the dry suit on I always seem to be toasty. My problem is my friggin' hands. They're always cold. I think I'm going to invest in some dry gloves for the winter season. I believe I've tried every "wet" glove on the market and they always spring leaks within a matter of months (actually it's usually weeks).

Anyhow my preference for underneath... layered smart wool.

Cheers, Joe

[glad]

Agree with everything you said, Suz. Wow, underwear with a zipper, where'd you find that? Doesn't get too bulky, two zippers at the butt?

My only additional comment is to plug SmartWool long undies. I am a recent and fanatical convert. Perfect first layer and in cool (not cold) weather all that is needed. No bulk and warm like a heater. Doesn't stink afterwards. Looks good too (go for the plum color), you can wear it to the put-in and be stylin'. We all know how important that is.

Kate

I tried the kokatat fleece liners that were designed presumbably for their dry suits but had no luck. There were tons of seams that were bulky and they didn't seem to fit an athletic body. Too small in the shoulder and binding.

I finally chose my expedition weight patagonia bottoms that I didn't like cause they were well, not very stylish. I brought them to a tailor who put in a two-way zipper to match the womens relief zipper for $25. I had her put in a an extra piece of material to shield the zipper from my butt and did not have any problems with the "double zipper problem". Though I did worry about it initially.

The cool thing about just using bottoms is that you have a lot of freedom to choose your layers on top. And I agree with Suz , the functional part of a onesie shouldn't be too heavy weight.

It's one of my most favorite and valuable cold water items cause it is such a breeze to go to the bathroom and I feel like I can hydrate as much as I want.

[Guest mike_crouse]

(notable exceptions being mike crouse / jason / walter and assorted other large marine mammals)

Why are we geting dragged into this and did you really mean to put "other" in their? That one little word drastically changes the meaning of that sentence!

Btw. My dog is bigger than your dog, and my wife made me a lightweight one piece drysuit liner from 4-way stretch fleece!