Maine Water Temperature

[ExGMan]

I was up (or is is down?) in Maine this past weekend w/o boat. As we rested atop Beech Mtn. in Acadia NP, we encountered a USCG EMT from the SE Harbor Station and discussed water temperatures. He said that in that area the tested water temperature that day was 46F, and that his recommendation or possibly mandate was that USCG boat personnel be out wearing 8MM neoprene.

A few hours later, we happened by a small inlet, and observed a few kayakers paddling into a landing without PFDs, wearing what were clearly cotton T-shirts, shorts and Teva-type sandals. I didn't put my thermometer in the water there (it was safe in Brookline), but I stood in the water in my Tevas, and it had to be 60F or less. Sea-state was flat calm but, were these people crazy or unninformed, or am I an alarmist?

[bob budd]

A PFD is going to save you from drowning, not the elements. There is no good argument against wearing one. The absence of proper clothing is more to your point of water temperature. I don't dress below a 3MM farmer john the entire season. We paddled in Maine in October and took our dry suits. This served as much the safety margin against immersion/hypothermia as it served our campsite clothing needs by keeping our layers drier.

[Bill Gwynn]

NOAA has a great list of water temps around the country.

http://www.nodc.noaa.gov/dsdt/wtg12.html

[wilsoj2]

Did they have nice enough boats to acquire should they swim ;-)

I'm in a dry suit for any water temps below 60F. Look at the photos from the Downeast Symposium. Dry suits predominate.

[shewhorn]

> Sea-state was

>flat calm but, were these people crazy or unninformed, or am

>I an alarmist?

Twice in the past week I've been asked by people walking by as I packed up my gear "do you really need to be in a wet suit". One even said "I thought there was a formula" (I've seen said formula before and I'm pretty sure that it was written by someone who didn't know basic arithmetic, didn't know how to read a weather report, or both). I think it's just basic ignorance with regards to how cold water can incapacitate you. It's further compounded by the "it could never happen to me" mentality. When I told these people that "yes, you absolutely need to be wearing a wetsuit in these conditions" they countered saying that the conditions were calm. I was pleasant and nice but I could tell that they clearly thought I was some alarmist safety freak.

I think the next time someone responds in disbelief I'm going to use a seatbelt analogy. Do you really need it? But look there's no cars, at least none that I can see. What about the drunk driver who runs the stop sign or the deer that jumps out of the woods right in front of your car? What if your master brake cylinder fails? What if you experience a blowout? In everyday driving these things rarely happen to people and for some people they never happen. You still wear your seat belt because in an accident they could save your life.

I don't know, maybe I am safety freak. I don't ski without a helmet (have to admit I resisted this for the longest time, I've been skiing since I was 4 and skiing with a helmet was just different), I don't get on my bicycle without a helmet, I don't autocross without an SCCA approved helmet (I go one up and use a full fask shield that protects the jaw), I don't drive my car without putting on my seat belt, and with my new found love, I won't paddle without the proper clothing for full immersion given the water temps.

Still... you're going to find people who argue against overwhelming common sense. We all know who these people are... they can be seen travelling 75 MPH on 93 reading the morning newspaper, putting on their makeup, or shaving (I've seen all three numerous times).

Cheers, Joe

[Brian Nystrom]

You've simply taken the time to learn the risks of your chosen activities and you're acting responsibly. Kudos to you. The people you met are typical and they usually fall into one of two categories:

1- The Ignorant - who simply don't have a clue as to what the dangers of paddling cold water are.

2- The Excuse Makers - who rationalize poor judgment in order to avoid the cost of proper clothing/gear and or the perceived inconvenience of wearing/carrying it.

Both groups are irresponsible. The fact that they usually survive simply reinforces their poor judgment and allows them to procreate and produce more idiots. Of course, these are also the first people to blame someone else and sue if something goes wrong and they're often rewarded for their stupidity and irresponsible actions. It's like feeding pigeons in the park, the end result is more pigeons.

You did the right thing by trying to convince them of the necessity for immersion clothing. When I hear comments like "the conditions are calm" or "I don't plan on going in the water", I'm always tempted to reply with "I'm sure there are a lot of dead kayakers who said the same thing."

[tedious]

No excuse for going out without a PFD, in my opinion - plus if you don't wear it, where do you put it? But with regard to the clothing, for all you know (or at least all you stated) they could have been coming back from a 10 minute trip around the cove, so you might want to lighten up a little.

T.

[EEL]

>> Sea-state was

>>flat calm but, were these people crazy or unninformed, or am

>>I an alarmist?

I confess to believing that applying dogma in an unthinking manner is never good.

I also believe most outdoor activity clubs tend to be dogmatic about safety issues as it is perceived to be the best and most responsible way to drill it into the heads of the majority of the membership which tend to be inexperienced/unskilled and generally unable to make sound decisions by themselves. I don't really disagree with that approach as the underlying reasons are valid most of the time.

Consider these data points.

In Bar Harbor, outfitters well into Sept. are taking people with minimal experience, admittedly in tandems, on what would be L3 NSPN trips and none of those participants are wearing wetsuits or drysuits.

There are many guided trips in this area and Stonigton with water temps in the low 60s at best and the clients are not wearing wetsuits let alone drysuits.

If it were unalterably true that to be safe it was an absolute that a drysuit or wetsuit were needed in these situations, I suspect the insurers of these businesses would require it or the rates would be prohibitive. If it were dangerous, there would be far more incidents than there are.

The water temps above Casco Bay are seldom much above 60 anytime of year, yet the large majority of kayakers are not wearing drysuits and most are not wearing wetsuits.

Are all these people idiots or uniformed or crazy? No, but some may well be. Many are reasonable people with a good deal of experience, adequate knowledge to evaluate the issues appropriately, accustomed to the conditions and making safety decisions based on a galaxy of factors. Just because they do not reach decisions that comply with a some set of rules and establish safety margins that do not comply with those of others does not make them crazy or ignorant or unsafe.

Having said that, I too have watched others launch in cotton sweatshirts and no extra gear as I was loading all kinds of stuff into my boat and struggling into my drysuit. When in doubt I err on the side of caution and for anything other than a practice session on a local lake always take enough stuff to get by for a couple of days. But I have also kayaked in water under 60 wearing only hydroskin and think it was appropriate under the circumstances.

Ed Lawson

[Dee Hall]

>In Bar Harbor, outfitters well into Sept. are taking people

>with minimal experience, admittedly in tandems, on what

>would be L3 NSPN trips and none of those participants are

>wearing wetsuits or drysuits.

Most likely this is a choice made for economic reasons, not for safety. They don't want the costs of supplying and maintaining wetsuits for all of their customers, and they know that if their customers are required to wear them, some won't go.

The outfitter that I work for strongly recommends that the paddlers on our trips in waters below 60 degrees wear the wetsuits we supply them.

-Dee

[jonsprag1]

The air temp last Saturday and Sunday was 80 degrees with no winds(at least in the Stonington area) For the three weeks previous, I have been having my clients wear farmer johns(we supply them to our guided customers at no cost.)as have I. Given the warm weather and still winds this weekend, I made the choice optional(also we don't do any long crossings---never more than a five minute paddle from land and it takes me no more than 2 minutes to put two people back into a tandem kayak if they capsize. If the weather had been cooler or windier we would have been in neoprene. Would it have been safer to be in wetsuits despite the 80 dgree air temp and the 55 dgree water temp? Sure but as I'm sure everybody knows, wetsuits aren't the most comfortable attire, particularly in hot weather. In short it was a judgement call---ps we will be wearing wetsuits this weekend (temps in 60s) and we always wear pfds, unless the client can convince me that he can walk on water.

[shewhorn]

>The air temp last Saturday and Sunday was 80 degrees with no

>winds(at least in the Stonington area) For the three weeks

>previous, I have been having my clients wear farmer johns(we

>supply them to our guided customers at no cost.)as have I.

What slippery pickle that one is. On the one hand you want to protect clients from hypothermia should something bad happen and on the flip side you don't want to increase the risks for heat exhaustion.

Cheers, Joe

[EEL]

>What slippery pickle that one is.

Bingo! Sometimes you have to balance things and there are no easy answers. If being over dressed is likely to dehydrate or overheat someone so they are more likely to make a mistake or be less physically able, then maybe it is safer to wear less. Tricky stuff...calculating margins/odds. Fortunately in kayaking there is little or no downside for carrying lots of gear as there is in climbing.

Ed Lawson

[jonsprag1]

naw---not heat exhauston I can always pour water over their heads---simply a judgement call----it's kind of like paddlers going out with 25 knot winds and 6 foot seas----see and read about it often, (have done it myself on occasion but wouldn't guide clients in those conditions,) not only on the trip reports on this website but elsewhere----last winter I read a report in an online paddling magazine about a new years day trip off the Coast of Massachusettes---wind 15 knots gusting to 25---I would not be paddling or guiding in those conditions at that time of year, but if someone has the skills and the equipment, I'm not going to comment on their judgement but accept it. When I first started paddling and saw someone out in 50-60 degree weather without a pfd or immersion clothing I would say something to them and at best would get a mind your own business kind of stare---I don't bother with that any more---like someone said in the posts above lots of Outfitters on the coast of Maine take clients out in Sept without wetsuits---- Unlike some if I think the conditions require wetsuits we wear them----I didn't think the conditions required them last weekend

[shewhorn]

>naw---not heat exhauston I can always pour water over their

>heads---

That will help but it won't cure heat exhaustion which is caused by dehydration and the body's inability to cool itself (being in a wetsuit on an 80 degree day would warm someone up causing them to sweat more which would be ineffective since evaporative cooling doesn't work with a wetsuit on). In more extreme cases, especially with an unfit paddler heat exhaustion can lead to heat stroke which can cause brain damage or death. Everyone responds differently though and has different tollerances for heat/cold.

Cheers, Joe

[EEL]

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