tvcrider Posted July 31, 2006 Share Posted July 31, 2006 This question is to those of you that have ordered/purchased a composite kayak with a custom bulkhead. I believe I understand the advantages (i.e. increased foreward storage space; comfortable/stable foot placement).Do any of you regret the selection of this option?I can think of one negative issue.Up to now I have sold several boats and moved on to others. A custom bulkhead could cut down on the boats 'resaleability'. However, if the custom kayak in question is a Valley product the factory can also tap holes and supply hardware for a future footbrace installation. That option would allow one to sell the boat to a paddler of equal or lesser inseam.Thanks in advance for your input.Note: I originally posted this question out on www.paddling.net, but I didn't receive much in response. Thought I would try it here, because I know there are an number of NSPNers with custom forward bulkheads in there boats. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bob budd Posted July 31, 2006 Share Posted July 31, 2006 Once you've paddled without footpegs you'll wonder why you ever did. To account for shoe thickness, comfort, and shrinkage add 1-2" to your "ideal" location of the bulkhead. You can pad out the bulkhead to correct and you get 1-2" of resaleability. If the buyer is short maybe you can get the Capitol One guys to stretch him out on a rack, they are always looking for new lines of work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin B (RPS Coach) Posted July 31, 2006 Share Posted July 31, 2006 But what is the advantage of the custom bulkhead over a standard bulkhead postion and more foam? I don't have a custom bulkhead in my Explorer, but I do use foam instead of footpegs. Besides saving a little bit of money on foam, is there another advantage to that custom bulkhead beyond the extra storage space?Oh, by the way, you might hear from someone whose name starts with G in re the shrinkage issue...just a warning Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bob budd Posted July 31, 2006 Share Posted July 31, 2006 Given all factors mentioned above I would add that foam work free inside the cockpit and even blow away en-route to, or coming home from, a paddle. Note that when you have more than one layer of foam, you can use scraps between layers, reducing waste and cost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djlewis Posted July 31, 2006 Share Posted July 31, 2006 Many folks set the standard Valley bulkheads back 3-4 inches. That is said to accomodate a fairly tall, long-legged paddler, though perhaps not extrememly tall, so your resale market is still pretty wide open.Since you can pad out any length bulkhead to essentially any thickness, the major advantage of the setback is that much extra room in the forwared hatch. That's on top of the two advantages of padding: more comfortable place to put your feet and even move them around a litte; reduced cockpit volume, which makes it easier to drain.That said, I recently heard one complaint about padded bulkheads -- there is some flex when you press your foot on the padding as part of an aggressive forward stroke. I think that's something to consider -- a small differential in foot/leg travel translates into a noticable one in paddle travel, and every bit helps. The solution is something else I saw recently, which is to use very stiff, hard green foam, the sort used in gardens, I believe. But darned if I can find it online -- any help?Thanks. --David. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterB Posted July 31, 2006 Share Posted July 31, 2006 The standard custom front bulkhead is 33" to 34", although you can, of course, order or retrofit what you please. 33" to 34 " (that refers to inseam) allows for most paddlers to pad out the bulkhead by a couple of inches, depending on your height, or how long your legs are, and will allow for resale to a paddler up to @6'2", so paddlers in that 6'3"-6'4" and higher will probably not be eligable buyers if you're thinking about resale. If resale is the very most important thing to you, then it may not be a good idea, but in all other respects, a custom bulkhead with minicell will put you in the lap of luxury. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Nystrom Posted August 1, 2006 Share Posted August 1, 2006 ...you're wasting a lot of energy for no gain, as all you're doing is shoving your back harder into the backband. The pressure on the feet only needs to be enough to resist the thrust on the paddle, which for most paddlers is in the neighborhood of 8-10 pounds, maximum (it sounds low, but it's true according to what I've read). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djlewis Posted August 1, 2006 Share Posted August 1, 2006 Yep, I get your point. But it's not a question of pushing the foot particularly ~hard~, but using the leg to drive the hip backward and ultimately power the paddle. If the foam gives even as little as half an inch, it's that much less hip rotation, which is magnified through the torso and arms to a couple inches or more of lost hip-powered paddle movement, which is significant.On footpegs I notice a difference between pressing with the solid ball/instep of the foot vs. further up toward the toes. Using more toe allows a bit of flex in the foot and a similar loss of travel and energy. It really makes a noticable difference in efficiency and ultimately water speed.So, what's that hard green foam that Michael had in his new Night Heron, and where do you get it?--David. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Nystrom Posted August 1, 2006 Share Posted August 1, 2006 ...is if you remove the backband from your boat. Otherwise, it's largely an illusion. That's why racing boats typically have no backband.As for the foam that Michael used, it's the stuff used for making floral arrangements. If you're going to use it, I'd suggest putting a layer of Minicel over it, as it's not very abrasion resistant. You could also use pink or blue insulation board, which is similar in stiffness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djlewis Posted August 1, 2006 Share Posted August 1, 2006 >...is if you remove the backband from your boat. Otherwise, >it's largely an illusion. That's why racing boats typically >have no backband.Are you sure? My butt is swiveling in the seat pretty vigorously. You may be right in absolute terms that you get more hip rotation without a backband. But even with a backband, there is still significant hip rotation and the more the better. And any loss of rotation translates diretly into less hip power on the blade.>As for the foam that Michael used, it's the stuff used for >making floral arrangements. The stuff I see called "floral foam" seems more open cell -- it soaks up a lot of water. In fact, that's touted as an advantage, since it keeps the flower stems nice and wet. But that's bad in a kayak where one of the reasons for the pad is to reduce the volume of water that it takes to fill the cockpit. That stuff is also more fragile, and dents easily. Where should I look -- a garden store? Home Depot?>If you're going to use it, I'd >suggest putting a layer of Minicel over it, as it's not very >abrasion resistant. You could also use pink or blue >insulation board, which is similar in stiffness. Good idea.. thanks.--David. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gyork Posted August 1, 2006 Share Posted August 1, 2006 Joe, I reduced the length of my Argonaut bulkhead by a few inches by inserting a perfectly-fitting pair of blue "kickboards" that I purchased at my local YMCA (~12x16x1.25"; $7.50 each). By encircling these floats with 3 wide, homemade rubber bands, they serve double-duty as my paddle float.Gary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin B (RPS Coach) Posted August 1, 2006 Share Posted August 1, 2006 With a cockpit cover in place, they won't blow away. Even without one, it the foam is fit correctly into the boat, it shouldn't come out. Adhesive could also be used if necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bob budd Posted August 1, 2006 Share Posted August 1, 2006 First you stop fastidiously rinsing your gear. Then you start leaving the cockpit cover at home. Somewhere in there you don't mind dragging you glass boat up the beach or over a few rocks. It'll come with time...If you continue to use cockpit covers (and fastidiously rinse your gear) the foam could come loose during a paddle, probably not when your in the cockpit, but maybe when you're scrambling up or down a patch of racks. We've made both of our "foam inserts" fit snugly. They have yet to come the least bit loose, even when I was getting trashed in Maine in July (and we neither rinse our gear nor use the cockpit covers). Just listing the pros and cons.I'd avoid adhesive since the main reason you use foam is to eventually remove it. A tight fit is your best bet, and its good practice for your first custom seat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rick stoehrer Posted August 1, 2006 Share Posted August 1, 2006 have a custom bulkhead foamed out in one boat and then a standard with footpegs in another...there is no comparison in comfort between the two...the foamed out bulkhead is hands down better.the foam is a snug fit and has only come out once and that was a very extreme circumstance...since i wasn't in the boat at the time. it has NEVER dislodged while driving and i do not use a cockpit cover.as far as resale value...(boats have resale value? interesting), unless you have very short legs and bring the BH back to a very short distance, you'd simply customize the foam to the new paddler OR drill in the slides for the foot pegs. if your legs are short and that's your concern in bringing it back then leave the BH where it is and put in foam to make up the distance. in any event, i would highly recommend using foam over footpegs...it offers a greater variety of positions for your feet and is far more comfortable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin B (RPS Coach) Posted August 1, 2006 Share Posted August 1, 2006 Joe,Just to clarify your original question, you basically have two options for feet placements, footpegs or bulkhead. As many have pointed out already, and I wholeheartedly agree, the use of the bulkhead for this purpose is far superior to using footpegs. Now, once you decide to go with the bulkhead, you have two choices, either order a custom bulkhead as you indicated, or a standard bulkhead where you make up the distance between your feet and the bulkhead with foam as Rick indicated. I padded out my standard bulkhead with removeable foam that does not come out unless I want it to after removing the footpegs, but keeping the footpeg rails in place. I did that in case I ever wanted to sell the boat (Rick's point is well noted on this issue ) and I was just too lazy to take out the rails and plug the holes that would exist. I never even notice that the rails are still there. Personally, I didn't need the extra storage space that the custom BH might provide and I'm much too impatient to wait for a custom ordered kayak. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvcrider Posted August 1, 2006 Author Share Posted August 1, 2006 Kevin,You clarification is correct. Basically it is a choice between a custom bulkhead or standard rails and footpegs.Valley makes the selection a little 'interesting' in that they can install both a custom bulkhead and tap the hull for footbraces, but leave them uninstalled (I think it's a modest $30 charge).It sounds like the majority of those specing a custom bulkhead would not bother with a fall-back set of holes and hardware. Rick's recommendation below to just add more foam for a shorter paddler is reasonable.I have been told that Valley had gone to a more simpified way of measuring for a custom bulkhead. It's really the same measurement as fitting a bike frame. Measure your inseam from floor to crotch (not pants sizing) and let Valley know if you plan on using a manual footpump (I do not). I believe my inseam measurement is rather average for someone around 5' 9". It runs about 32.75" One factor I have not mentioned is delivery. The dealer in question has a stock boat (no options) in inventory as we speak. I would prefer to have a fitted bulkhead, reinforced keel strip, and color of my choice, but I would obviously have to wait. If I order soon I was given an estimated mid-Fall delivery, but Valley has been very slow this year and I would not be surprised by an arrival date in early 2007. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dee Hall Posted August 1, 2006 Share Posted August 1, 2006 Actually, Bob has forgotten that his foam did come loose, so we have used contact cement to glue it together. I do not look forward to the day we have to pull it out.-Dee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dee Hall Posted August 1, 2006 Share Posted August 1, 2006 For those that camp and don't have really long legs, that extra storage space is really wonderful. In my boat, those first two dry bags just disappear from sight after being dropped into my forward hatch. It also means that weight is closer to the paddler making manuevering easier.-Dee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djlewis Posted August 1, 2006 Share Posted August 1, 2006 > I do not look forward to the day we have to pull it out. It's a good idea to put in some kind of line to be able to pull the foam bulkhead pad out. After all, it's supposed to fit quite tightly, so it doesn't come out on its own.Right now I have a temporary solution -- a tie-down strap wrapped vertically around the back of the pad and draped down the front. A more permanent solution -- once I get the pad sizing all set -- is a hole through the pad and a line through the hole connecting a thin wooden disk behind the pad and a small "handle" in front.--David. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Nystrom Posted August 1, 2006 Share Posted August 1, 2006 The green floral foam is available at craft stores. The blue and pink insulation are available at lumber yards and home centers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Sylvester Posted August 1, 2006 Share Posted August 1, 2006 I have a fear of doing an endo and having my feet break through the bulkhead and trap my feet in shards of splintered glass .....therefore I vote for footpegs. Yes, I like footpegs and I have tried both ways on several boats. At 6-3 I need footroom. To be able to adjust the pegs for different footwear seems better. Placed gear between my feet at times so the volume issue is NA to me. Can't even get in some boats foamed out for shorter people..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dee Hall Posted August 2, 2006 Share Posted August 2, 2006 I always carve a hand hold into the foam. That doesn't mean that the foam is going to slide out easily beyond various obstructions inside the boat (footpeg rails, deck fittings, etc.)-Dee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Nystrom Posted August 2, 2006 Share Posted August 2, 2006 >A more permanent solution -- once I get the >pad sizing all set -- is a hole through the pad and a line >through the hole connecting a thin wooden disk behind the >pad and a small "handle" in front. That's what I've done, though I use a simple loop in the cord rather than a handle on the cockpit side. On the bulkhead side, a piece of wood or a large stainless fender washer does the trick. I inlet it into the backside of the foam so it fits flush against the bulkhead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Suz Posted August 2, 2006 Share Posted August 2, 2006 On my Explorer that had 14" of foam in it prior to moving the bulkhead permanently, I simply would have a piece of webbing behind the foam and place the foam in on top of it. This allowed me to simply pull on the webbing to remove the foam from the boat. No fancy pull or disk or anything elaborate. On the issue of moving the bulkhead vs pegs, if I was buying new, I would order the bulkhead to allow for 3-4" of foam. That would still allow for a wider resale ability than just perfect for my short height.Suz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tvcrider Posted August 2, 2006 Author Share Posted August 2, 2006 Suz,Thanks for the tip! I have been told that Valley will want to know how much foam the owner plans on using when a custom bulkhead is speced.I hadn't really given much thought to what thickness of foam I would use, because I am still tried to decide if I want the customized bulkhead option. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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