P&H Bahiya and its' quirks

[josko]

I'm trying to get used to my Bahiya, and I'd appreciate feedback from those with time in it. Overall, I love the boat for distance paddling, calm water, current and downwind surfing, but it's giving me a hard time in confused water, clapotis and stern-quartering chop. In those conditions I seem to lose all primary stability and have to rely on bracing to stay afloat. I'm working on relaxing my stance, and it's helping, but to me, it seems like a very twitchy boat in confused, rough water. It's pitched me off more than once.

Is it me, or is it a boat design feature? What can i do to accomodate this twitchiness?

Thanks in advance

[EEL]

Josko:

Answers to the following would help answering your question.

How long have you been paddling the Bahiya and what boat did you have before it?

How much to you weigh and how much cargo do you typically have onboard?

Do you paddle with your thighs on the thigh braces most of the time?

Short response is the Bahiya behaves, especially unladen, as a hard chined boat with relatively tall, vertical sides and a narrow beam can be expected to behave.

Ed Lawson

[josko]

This is my 3th year in the Bahiya, I had a Nordkapp before it. The Bahiya was my go-to boat before buying a Romany Surf a year ago. Interestingly, i was more comfortable in the Bahiya a year ago than I am now with ~70% of my paddling in the Romany.

I weigh 190-200 lbs, 6'1", and typically have < 10 lbs of gear in the boat. On camping trips with ~50 lbs of gear, the boat is much more stable.

I used to paddle with my thighs braced up hard, but last month took the guide course from Carmody and Wright, and they convinced me to move the footpegs out and have no contact between the knees and boat. I'm now adapting my new stance to the Bahiya, and it's looking very promising.

[Gcosloy]

Josko,

I don't know the Bahiya specifically but have owned and paddled so called twitchy boats in the past. Question: when you say "Its pitched me off more than once.", does this mean you capsized? I had an affair with a Nordkapp and while I thought it would pitch me it never did; my recent Ellesmere having very low primary stability can be desribed as twitchy in confused and choppy seas. The point was that I never capsized in either boat but that doesn't mean I was completely comfortable in the conditions you describe either. Throwing braces sometimes is a response to the agita that results and is technically not necessary. If you relax you might eventually like your boat and have no problem, or not! Its not a coincidence that most of us paddle boats, the design of which is very similar-slight V hull with moderate soft chines. This combo gives moderate primary and strong secondary which allows the paddler to concentrate on his paddling and not worry about being pitched into the sea. Good luck

[josko]

I did capsize unintentionally in the Bahiya a half dozen times. I normally roll up and it's not a big deal, but is frustrating. This past weekend I ran into some unanticipated rock-hopping opportunities (off Rhode Island), and didn't dare go in close because of my lack of confidence in confused water. I'd love to learn how to get over this issue, as the boat is just so good at the things it does well, that I hate to give up on it.

[rick stoehrer]

"I used to paddle with my thighs braced up hard, but last month took the guide course from Carmody and Wright, and they convinced me to move the footpegs out and have no contact between the knees and boat. I'm now adapting my new stance to the Bahiya, and it's looking very promising." and then right before that you said , "...but it's giving me a hard time in confused water, clapotis and stern-quartering chop. In those conditions I seem to lose all primary stability and have to rely on bracing to stay afloat."

okay...what?

so you're knee's AREN'T making contact with the boat? are your thighs? are your hips? are your legs bent and feet on the footpegs? what are your points of contact with the boat and how is it proposed you control the boat? i wonder if there is a disconnect somewhere in the padawan / jedi knight relationship there.

it would seem to me from the cursory description that you don't have control of the boat because you don't have points of contact to control the boat...so, yeah, naturally, you're going to feel out of sorts but i wasn't there and am uncertain about what the lesson was and am not sure what's being proposed.

[josko]

Thanks much for all this feedback. I do appreciate it. I train with Greg Paquin, and he emphasizes (I think) a 'tighter' connection with the boat than does John Carmody. My issue was (is?) that in conditions I'd get the boat twitching rapidly from side to side, sort of 'micromanaging' it and trying to muscle it around. So John tried to get me to relax, move my footpegs out, and 'steer the boat with my butt cheeks'. My feet are on the pegs but legs are pretty straight. I can just engage my knees by moving the heels all the way back. I 'see the light' of the new way when trying to calm the Bahiya, but am anything but comfortable with the new stance in conditions.

[rick stoehrer]

sounds very much to me like your new stance is suboptimal when the water gets bumpy - you don't have enough contact with the boat - you are going to want to have a lot more contact surfaces than your butt alone. you aren't going to have much success with that.

[EEL]

Josko:

I believe the problem is you have become accustomed to the Romany which has a very different feel from the Bahiya and it will take time for your body to "recalibrate".

I believe this because I had a similar experience last year when I was most often using a Capella 161 for camping, etc. and later went back to my Sparrow Hawk for day paddles. At first the SH felt very twitchy in confused junk. After a trip or two it no longer twitched at all. Of course it was the same boat and was behaving the same, but my mind and body had "recalibrated" to its behavior. You obviously know the Bahiya well and no use talking about what it is and is not. I have found it a boat one can trust and have confidence in, but it is an "old school" boat made for loaded touring and to be "lively" even when loaded. To say it is tender when unladen is a considerable understatement. As for points of contact and all that, opinions and technique differ. Do what works for you is my mantra on such questions. Personally I have found Carmody's approach to be quite successful and useful even in confused water. My opinion is when you have a boat with a light stability profile you will only cause trouble trying to keep the boat in balance as in the "micromanage" point you raised as opposed to letting it do its thing while you stay balanced.

Ed Lawson

[ToddG]

My experience with the Bahiya at first had me second guessing my paddling abilities. However, on a paddling trip around Nantucket, I had some issues with my seat and consequently had to remove the seat and re-install it. In doing so, I thought about some of the balance issues I was having in the waves and the way it responded in the surf and had a momentary reversion to the WW paddling days of old. Way back then, I would shift my seat fore and aft for different rivers or tricks for each paddling trip. So, in this case, I shifted the seat forward and found my balance somewhat changed. In fact, shoving my seat as forward as it would go actually changed the character of the boat for me dramatically enough that I felt like I was paddling a new boat. I suppose that the amount of rocker played into this as a long, straight waterline boat likely would have less effect from a relatively small change like this. But in the Bahiya, it worked for me. I did the same thing in my P&H Quest and have really enjoyed that boat too (though with weight in it, I like it best).

Todd

[NateHanson]

sounds very much to me like your new stance is suboptimal when the water gets bumpy - you don't have enough contact with the boat - you are going to want to have a lot more contact surfaces than your butt alone. you aren't going to have much success with that.

These are different schools of thought Rick. There are plenty of good paddlers who have a lot of success with a "less-locked" stance in the boat, in confused water. The idea is the same as the "loose hips" principle. Let the boat do what it wants, and it will ride along upright. Lock into the thigh braces, and you're basically forced to actively balance the boat.

Different philosophies work for different folks.

[rick stoehrer]

there are loads of philosophies...there have been some real doozies. but he's less stable as a result of having too little contact with his boat. it's what he said when he started this thread, isn't it? the paddler and the boat sort have to be working in tandem and have a connection and from the sounds of things, that isn't happening.

on the ski, i've moved the pegs farther forward. it's great. unlocks my whole torso and the rotation is great and it's very comfortable. love it. i also don't paddle it in terribly confused water...that ski keeps me from locking in and after this many years, i'd guess i have a pretty decent seat in a boat so yeah, i'm loose and the boats doing it's thing and then we kinda come to an agreement on where we're going but i sure wouldn't dream of taking it and those loose hips into fishers race or any other tide race...i'd be swimming in short order.

the short of it is that when the water gets a little nasty, you're going to want to have your knee's under the coaming and lotsa contact. i'm not telling the fella to not have loose hips and get uptight and all wound up, what i am saying is that he needs more points of contact with his boat. i disagree with your assertion that you forced to actively balance the boat if you have your knees making contact...i'd say you had to actively balance yourself to the craft below you...stop trying to force the boat and just use those loose hips to gimbal yourself about and maintain your weight over the center.

[leong]

the short of it is that when the water gets a little nasty, you're going to want to have your knee's under the coaming and lotsa contact. i'm not telling the fella to not have loose hips and get uptight and all wound up, what i am saying is that he needs more points of contact with his boat. i disagree with your assertion that you forced to actively balance the boat if you have your knees making contact...i'd say you had to actively balance yourself to the craft below you...stop trying to force the boat and just use those loose hips to gimbal yourself about and maintain your weight over the center.

I agree with you Rick. Nevertheless, I’m amazed at how some of the surfski paddlers (the long skinny ones like the Epic V12 and V14) manage to stay upright in the really bad stuff. During the last Mayor’s Cup race while going through Hell Gate, I had a death grip on my Epic 18X kayak with my knees and thighs. Then I see the V12’s and Huki whatever’s passing me like dancing ballerinas.

-Leon

[rick stoehrer]

some of the real skinny boat surf ski folks seem to have a preternatural sense of balance and speed and power - with a the mini intro to that world i'm kinda going through, some of these guys are super impressive. while the ability to balance on a very narrow boat is by no means beyond the means of most, it seems to me that it takes years of dedication to just racing skinny boats.

i guess i'm not saying that what the fella is saying is "wrong"....nate's right, there are different philosophies - it all comes down to what works for you. in not locking in his knees/thighs, it seems to me that the fella may be going through that period of time where you do fall outta the boat a thousand times before that balance penny drops - and maybe it will for him and all his woes solved. all i'm saying is know WHEN you can put yer dang knee's back under the coaming and lock in...you've got a deck/coamning/hangers there for a reason, doesn't make any sense to me to not use them.

[josko]

Lots of good stuff in this thread, and I do appreciate it. Yeah, I HAVE taken a step back in terms of what's comfortable in a boat, in the hope that I'll come out a better paddler because of it. Guess this is what happens when you work with multiple coaches - you get different views and get to pick what works. Right now I feel those footpegs aren't going back. The Bahiya definitely seems more 'settled' with a butt-only connection - wonder how much that has to do with my knees moving from upper to lower deck and lowering the center of gravity?<br /><br />I live in Woods Hole, MA, and get exposure to snooty water; I was out (in the Romany) this past Monday on a flood tide and in some decent wind. I wasn't nearly as daring as I would have been with the knees clamped tight, but feel I'm on the steep part of a learning curve - I just don't know where this learning curve is taking me.<br /><br />Back to the Bahiya - I love the boat for camping, destination day padling (those great forays from Woods Hole to Cuttyhunk and back downwind through the middle of Vineyard sound with the afternoon seabreeze at the back), small-wave surfing (the damn thing pearls on anything bigger than ~4'), I love the way I can lay it over in current shear (really have to watch not to catch one of those big vertical surfaces in an eddy line), but really have a hard time with it in front of breakwaters, generally confused seas, and especially stern-quartering chop. I don't dare go rock-hopping with it.<br /><br />I'm not really sure I should be riding the Bahiya as a rock-hopping hull, but I'm willing to put in the time to grow into the boat. My original question was really about what others felt were the limitations of this boat, and what they do and don't do with it. I've been sorely tempted to ditch it and get a Cetus, but now think this boat has a lot to teach me. I'm becoming intrigued by overcomng its' quirks and am wondering where all the time I'm putting into it is leading me.

[EEL]

My original question was really about what others felt were the limitations of this boat, and what they do and don't do with it.

FWIW, I believe what you love to do with the Bahiya is right on target for its strengths and what it was designed/optimized to do. It was not designed to be an all around boat. You have a good boat for the rock hopping, etc. No reason to force either into roles they were not made to fill. Based on my time in it, the Bahiya is not nimble enough for rock hopping except for casual stuff and feels a little nervous in reflected/confused stuff if not loaded down. Its OK when going through such stuff, but it just will not feel as comfy as some other boats. They say some modern hulls work better in a wider range of stuff so the Cetus may have fewer quirks. Whether it would be as enjoyable overall is a personal thing and no right answer. I don't see any value in dealing with quirks unless the countervailing strengths outweigh them.

Ed Lawson

[Bob C]

I've paddled the Bahiya -- it's good for going fast and in a straight line and hauling a lot of gear but not very manueverable. Definitely not a rock boat.

I'm a loose-fit advocate; I've ripped the knee paddling out of two boats I've paddled (a Bahiya and my ocean-cockpit Pintail) because the padding put in by previous owners forced my knees close together and made the boats more unstable.I like to be able to slide my weight from side to side for edging and bring my legs up into the thigh braces as necessary for additional boat control. In general, let the boat do the work: it will remain upright if you let it. I've found stabililty in rough water to be more hips than anything else with an occasional knee (or hip flick) to bring the boat back under me.

Bob

[leong]

I'm a loose-fit advocate; I've ripped the knee paddling out of two boats I've paddled (a Bahiya and my ocean-cockpit Pintail) because the padding put in by previous owners forced my knees close together and made the boats more unstable.I like to be able to slide my weight from side to side for edging and bring my legs up into the thigh braces as necessary for additional boat control. In general, let the boat do the work: it will remain upright if you let it. I've found stabililty in rough water to be more hips than anything else with an occasional knee (or hip flick) to bring the boat back under me.

Bob

Hmm, looks like there are at least two schools of thought in this thread. When I started paddling about 20 years ago I think that the consensus for a sea kayak was that it should have tight thigh braces and hip pads; i.e. you wear the kayak. Of course I realize this didn’t apply to racing kayaks and surfskis. The cockpit on my Epic 18X is huge and it’s takes time to make contact under the combing (which I try to do in very rough water). But this large cockpit is better for the knees up racing position.

-Leon

[Pintail]

Leon, I, on the other hand, favour loose hips, but strong thigh contact and so I have plenty of padding under the deck in all my boats (ocean cockpits, of course, except for one)! ;^)

[josko]

Much thanks to Will Burgess, who showed me yesterday what the Bahiya can do in 20-25 kts in Woods Hole. I now have a worthy goal to shoot for, and can only hope to grow into this hull.

[Mforti]

FYI There's a nice Bahiya on craigslist this week.

[josko]

What should a reasonaly fit person be able to average in the Bahiya? I've worked up to 4.5 knots (4 hrs over a favorite 18 nautical mile course, Naushon island circumnavigation), with the Werner Ikelos and feel pretty good about hitting that benchmark, but I'm wondering where that fits with other (non-competing) paddlers in similar kayaks.

[Jon L.]

Lower the seat.