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subaruguru

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Interesting: I have a 6 yr old M88 and usually do remove the battery to dry the few drops that get inside when I rinse with fresh water after use. About a yr ago the latch mechanism broke and springs came out and I couldn't secure the battery to the unit anymore. Finally I did rig something up which did work but that had enough play such that the battery to unit contacts were arcing and the unit stopped working. Icom replaced the latch parts cleaned and greased the contacts and brought the entire unit up to spec. for $46. I'm pleased! I'll take your advice and not remove the battery again!

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Interesting: I have a 6 yr old M88 and usually do remove the battery to dry the few drops that get inside when I rinse with fresh water after use. ....! I'll take your advice and not remove the battery again!

Gene,

If you are getting water intrusion when you rinse the rado then you will be getting salt water intrusion when it is used. I believe that after you rinse it with the battery attached you should remove the battery and clean/dry areas where there has been water intrusion rather than letting that moisture slowly dry and eventually corrode the contacts. On many of the ICOM radios some intrustion is to be expected and should be dealt with. As to whether the radio meets its IPX rating with the battery removed, that depends upon the radio as some do.

Ed Lawson

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Gene,

If you are getting water intrusion when you rinse the rado then you will be getting salt water intrusion when it is used. I believe that after you rinse it with the battery attached you should remove the battery and clean/dry areas where there has been water intrusion rather than letting that moisture slowly dry and eventually corrode the contacts. On many of the ICOM radios some intrustion is to be expected and should be dealt with. As to whether the radio meets its IPX rating with the battery removed, that depends upon the radio as some do.

Ed Lawson

Ed, you're correct. My solution is to replace the Icom M72 VHF radio every two years (whenever the on/off/volume control freezes up permanently). The West Marine warrantee plan costs about $40. That's pretty inexpensive to have a brand new radio every year or two. The plan replaces the radio immediately (right in the store). Of course, I do rinse it with the battery connected each use and occasionally check the battery contacts which are almost always clean.

Leon

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My solution is to replace the Icom M72 VHF radio every two years (whenever the on/off/volume control freezes up permanently)

I took Lisa's advice and got a spray bottle of Salt Away. Just used it once so far, but it appears to do the job nicely. Hey, I inadvertently ordered an extra bottle -- it's yours when you get back on the water.

--David

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I took Lisa's advice and got a spray bottle of Salt Away. Just used it once so far, but it appears to do the job nicely. Hey, I inadvertently ordered an extra bottle -- it's yours when you get back on the water.

--David

Ha, ha, ha! I introduced Lisa to that product (after buying one bottle and one spray can from West Marine). It might work well if you don’t use the radio almost every day all year long like I do. I have no idea. Once the volume control gets stuck, believe me, it’s hopeless.

But, I'd rather get a new radio occasionally for $40, rather than waste my time everyday fiddling with the volume control and trying to pour that product down the stem. If ICOM didn’t under-design the volume control there probably wouldn’t be a problem. Besides, I don’t know whether the product would work well over the long term. Wanna buy a couple of bottles at a discount?

Leon

PS

Lisa's main use of the product is for her under-designed camera. My plastic Pentax W60 doesn't corrode at all ... just a quick splash of fresh water takes care of it.

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I had an Icom M32 that lasted me over 10 years before finally flickering out last winter. In February I bought an M72 because I was totally convinced by ICOM quality, and loved the small size and big battery capacity.

However, after only 6 months of moderate use, this radio has stopped working! First I had trouble with corroding battery contacts, so I cleaned them up, and applied some dielectric grease to keep them clean. That appeared to solve that problem. Next I noticed a substantial amount of corrosion flaking off the paint near the bottom of the radio. And then one day last month, the radio wouldn't turn off, no matter what I did with the knob. That lasted a couple days (I removed the battery when I needed to turn off the radio). Then soon after, I had the opposite problem - the radio won't turn on, despite a fully charged battery, and copious fiddling with the volume knob.

I miss my M32. If I could get another one of those, made new, and with a LI battery, I'd do it in a heart beat. No corroding aluminum case. No knobs whatsoever, and the battery contacts are securely sealed inside the radio.

<grumble>

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  • 4 weeks later...

To complete my narrative arc, Icom replaced my M72 under warranty. They noted that after use, I should remove the battery, and don't charge it until everything is dry. Not sure that explains the water intrusion problem that killed the radio itself, but there you go.

Nate

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<To complete my narrative arc...>

Is there gold at the end of it, Nate? :emweather15:

That's one nice turn of phrase -- I did not know conversations went in arcs! ;^) Thanks for initiating a fascinating thread (even if I have forgotten all about milli-Amp/hours and all that)

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Having now become proficient at replacing corroded contacts in M88's, I was surprised to take David's non-functioning M88 apart to find NO water incursion, disconnected connectors, broken/cracked contacts, nor apparent cold solder joints. iCom wants $90 shipped just to LOOK at it. Hmmm....

Also notice that a PAIR of new 1.7 aH batteries for M88 are only $19-24 on eBay, but the non-cloned 2 aH one for the M72 is a whopping $83 each! Makes one wonder, and perhaps reconsider relative value.

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iCom wants $90 shipped just to LOOK at it. Hmmm....

Usually there is a standard "bench fee" for out of waranty radios and you only pay it if you do not repair the radio. They examine radio, tell you what is wrong and give you an estimate of the repair cost. If you have the radio repaired, you only pay the cost of the repairs and most are good about reasonable repair costs. When you think about what it takes to have a shop to do the work and determine needed repairs, the usual bench fee is not bad. Not good, but not bad either.

Yeah, the battery costs are all over the place and something to think about.

Ed Lawson

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  • 6 years later...
On ‎8‎/‎21‎/‎2012 at 9:42 AM, gyork said:

For those who are concerned about consuming battery life from their radios, I performed a test with my 5-year-old ICOM 88 to simulate on-water usage. After FULLY CHARGING my Li-ion (3 bars, level 8.2), I set to monitor mode on DAY 1 for 8.5 h, making 2-3 transmits of 15 s or so, and 2 min of weather channel. On DAY 2: 3 bars, level 8.0, transmits/weather, 11 h. DAY 3: 3 bars, level 7.8, etc., 11 h. DAY 4: 3 bars, level 7.6, etc., 24 h. DAY 5: 2 bars, level 7.4, etc., 13.7 h. DAY 6: 1 bar, "low" flashing, level 7.2.

Summary: I assume that the radio will maintain a status of full or nearly-full charge (3 bars) for a minimum of 30.5 h (conservative; not sure when radio dipped from 3 to 2 bars during day 4 of testing), with ?possibly diminished transmit ability after 54.5 h (who can speak to this?). My limited understanding of Li-ion batteries suggests that one does not need to fully discharge them before recharging-IS THIS CORRECT? In an earlier post I suggested that my radio would last a full season of my limited paddling without recharging - I still stand by this. This would also support my recommendation to leave (fully-charged) radios ON for the full day(s) of group paddles-no worries!

Perhaps owners of different radio models will perform similar tests and post their results here?

I've attempted this test twice now overnight with my Standard Horizon HX870, and go from a full battery to dead and off in less than 8 hours of "standby" (monitoring ch 72, no transmitting, no weather channel). After the first test, I used the Reset function to return the radio to what it considers defaults, and then turned off GPS and put battery save mode to 90%.

I'd be grateful if other HX870 owners would perform this test and confirm or dispute an 8-hour standby runtime.

 

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  • 2 years later...

Bumping this thread in hopes that other VHF radio users will test and share some real-life results on how long their radio can operate on a single charge. Just back from a 4-night camping trip in Casco Bay, where my DSC-equipped (Digital Selective Calling - GPS, SOS features, etc) Standard Horizon HX870 was pretty much out of charge after three days of "let's keep our radios on in case we need to talk" paddling. Other radios, including Gary's ancient ICOM M88, still had significant charge left. ICOM lists a standby time of 11 hours for this radio, and Gary reports 54+ hours above. I don't understand that at all. I've done two nights of testing with my radio back home, and despite having a larger-capacity battery, the squelch up, the GPS off, the volume and backlight timer on the most conservative settings, and all of the power saving settings enabled, my radio is dead after 8-10 hours of sitting on a desk, receiving nothing, transmitting nothing. This is actually in-line with most of the reports on a Standard Horizon user's group.

Anyways, it would be helpfup to hear other standby-time test results, especially from owners of other DSC-enabled radios. All you need to do is charge your radio, turn it on before you go to sleep, note the time, adjust the squelch so it's not outputting random noise from far-off signals, and make note of the approximate time when the radio shuts off with an empty battery. Post your radio's model name, the approximate run-time you observed, and anything else that's pertinent (DSC or not, age of radio/battery, whether you did a few transmits/weather report received or just left it alone)

Real Example:

Standard Horizon HX870, lasts 8-10 hrs in standby with no transmissions or calls received. Approx 5+ yrs old with light use, original battery. GPS off.

Edited by Dan Foster
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Dan:

Some random thoughts.

1.  I know few believe me on this, but a five year old battery has lost some of its working capacity.  It will lose capacity over time whether you use it or not.  It will charge up just fine, but amount of electrical "gas in the tank" will be reduced.  Asking a battery that old to perform as new, especially when transmitting , is rather optimistic.  Don't assume the battery level indicator is actually showing you the amount of working capacity of the battery.  It might show  quite a bit of charge left, but stop working quickly if asked to transmit.

2.  AFAIK the M88 has a larger capacity battery than the HX-870.  It is also more efficient in that it draws a max of 200Ma on receive compared to 330Ma for the 870.  They both draw the same when transmitting as expected.

3.  I could not find the Sandby or idle current for the M88 so can't compare, but my SWAG would be 50Ma or lower.

4.  Sandby times for HT's are based on transmitting 5%, receiving 5%, and not signal for 90% of time.  Not the same as the test you describe for which a radio should last much longer than the advertised Standby time.  Interestingly, the I could not find a time listed for the HX-870. 8 hours or so of Standby would seem reasonable for the radio given all its features which most likely increase its current draw no matter what you do.  For example the standby draw for a "regular" HT would be  50Ma or less and that 10Ma difference represent a large percentage increase in draw.

5.  The M88 might be an antique, but it is a very good radio. It is essentially a commercial grade radio and that will show sooner or later.  My impression is many if not most of the floating radios are consumer grade stuff, but that is based on limited info.

Ed Lawson

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4 hours ago, Dan Foster said:

Standard Horizon HX870, lasts 8-10 hrs in standby with no transmissions or calls received. Approx 5+ yrs old with light use, original battery. GPS off.

I think I found part of your problem.  Without the kind of high-end battery management system they put in things like battery electric vehicles, lithium ion batteries tend to degrade almost as fast as the lead-acid batteries in cars.

By the way, some of the activities which tend to degrade lithium ion batteries include charging to 100%, leaving charged at 100%, discharging to 0%, leaving discharged at 0%.

My second HX850s rechargeable battery pack now only lets me hear, not transmit.  I just discovered replacement FNB-V99LI battery packs are no longer available.  On the bright side, I did purchase the accessory tray which uses disposable batteries.  I will have to experiment with that next time.  I might also be able to get it to work with some of the modern rechargeable batteries that didn't exist when I purchased the radio.  Though as I recall the accessory tray does not provide full power transmission.

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Ed is right, the Icom M88 has a 1850mAh min/1950mAh typical battery. The SH 870HX has an 1800mAh battery. Not sure why Icom gives two numbers, but it's up to 8% larger capacity than the 870HX.

The SH 870HX has a 1800mAh battery, and lists a standby current draw (with GPS off) of 60mA. 1800/60 = 30, so it should be capable of 30 hours in standby mode (no GPS, no signals received, no transmissions). With the GPS on, the standby current draw is 100mA, so 18 hours standby time.

That would suggest that I'm only getting 1/3rd of the expected run time in 100% standby mode, no GPS (<10hrs observed, vs 30hrs expected). I've been griping about the battery life of this radio since I first purchased it, so I'm not convinced it had 3x the run time when the battery was new. 

Icom M88 lists a 20mA "power save" current draw - perhaps this is the lowest possible standby current. Assuming a 1900mAh battery at 20mA, the radio should last 95 hours in "power save" standby mode.

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Having looked at this further, I now believe, for multi-day kayaking/camping use at least, that standby current draw is the limiting factor for battery life. The typical duty cycle used for determining the manufacturer's stated battery life is 5% transmitting, 5% receiving, and 90% standby. There are 300 minutes in a typical 5 hour day of paddling. That duty cycle would assume that we're transmitting for 15 minutes, listening to replies or indecipherable lobstermen for 15 minutes, and not using the radio at all for the remaining 4.5 hours. I'd be surprised if I've ever spent more than 5 total minutes talking into my radio over the course of a typical day (that would be thirty 10-second transmissions!).

There's a current draw whenever a transmission is received. Bumping up the squelch to cut out far-off/garbled/background noise apparently will help reduce this current draw. I found a reference in a Standard Horizon manual that says properly adjusting squelch "significantly reduces battery current consumption". It's probably wise to switch channels if we find ourselves on a busy channel with lots of local chatter.

If I were to buy a new radio tomorrow (and I just might!), primarily for multi-day journeying, I think I'd put a low standby current draw toward the top of my priority list.

I found the standby current draw for all of Standard Horizon's 2021 offerings:

Marine_Catalog_2021_USA.pdf (standardhorizon.com)

HX890: 130mA (GPS on), 110mA (GPS off), 1800mAh battery = 16 hr standby with GPS off

HX40: 100mA, 1850mAh battery = 18.5 hr standby

HX210: 60mA, 1850mAh battery = 30.8 hr standby

HX300: 20mA, 1560mAh battery = 78 hr standby

HX400: 50mA, 2550mAh battery = 51 hr standby

HX407: 70mA, 2300mAh battery = 32.8 hr standby

HX380: 50mA, 1600mAh battery = 32 hr standby

and a couple older models from the 2014 and 2017 catalog (standardhorizon.com)

HX870: 100mA (GPS on), 60mA (GPS off), 1800mAh battery = 30 hr standby with GPS off

HX150: 15mA, 1030mAh battery = 68.6 hr standby

HX851: 100mA (GPS on), 60mA (GPS off), 1380mAh battery = 23 hr standby with GPS off

HX290: 50mA, 1140mAh battery = 22.8 hr standby

HX370: 40mA, 1400mAh battery = 35 hr standby

 

Adding some hard-to-find info about "battery save" mode on Standard Horizon radios...

From hx870-hx890@groups.io | Info on saving battery during reception and GPS use

Power Save options:

               Enable Battery Save Off, 50, 70, 80, 90%

               Enable GPS Power Save Off, Auto, 50, 75, 90%

 

Saving the Battery during Reception

One of the important features of the HX870 is its battery saver, which “puts the radio to sleep” for a time interval, periodically “waking it up” to check for activity. If somebody is talking on the channel, the HX870 will remain in the “awake” mode, then resume its “sleep” cycles. This feature significantly reduces quiescent battery drain.

To activate the battery saver, select one of the following interval time ratios on the item BATTERY SAVE of the CONFIGURATION menu in the SETUP mode.

50% ... Sleeps for 100 ms after 100 ms awake

70% ... Sleeps for 250 ms after 100 ms awake

80% ... Sleeps for 450 ms after 100 ms awake

90% ... Sleeps for 900 ms after 100 ms awake

 

Edited by Dan Foster
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13 hours ago, Dan Foster said:

primarily for multi-day journeying, I think I'd put a low standby current draw toward the top of my priority list.

Alas, the main reason I carry a VHF radio is to have DSC with GPS just in case.  Those are not low standby current draw features.

My current thinking for my HX850s is to try using my FBA-38 Alkaline Battery Case which uses five AAA batteries.  However, instead of using single use Alkaline Batteries or low voltage NiMH rechargeable batteries, I'll try using the new 1.5 volt Lithium rechargeable batteries from Pale Blue Earth.  You recharge them with any Micro USB cable.  Each battery weighs just 7g, and AAA sized batteries don't take much space.  So it is easy to carry spare sets.

The biggest downsides of the FBA-38 Battery Case, at least with true Alkaline Batteries, is that it doesn't permit 6 watt transmission, and the Alkaline Batteries don't  last as long as the original battery did when new.  However, the Coast Guard has really big antennas, and if I can normally get one paddle out of a battery charge, while carrying five spare batteries...

EDIT: Cheaper at Amazon.

Edited by billvoss
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  • 4 weeks later...
On 10/15/2021 at 11:24 AM, billvoss said:

My current thinking for my HX850s is to try using my FBA-38 Alkaline Battery Case which uses five AAA batteries.  However, instead of using single use Alkaline Batteries or low voltage NiMH rechargeable batteries, I'll try using the new 1.5 volt Lithium rechargeable batteries from Pale Blue Earth.  You recharge them with any Micro USB cable.  Each battery weighs just 7g, and AAA sized batteries don't take much space.  So it is easy to carry spare sets.

So my 12 pack from Amazon arrived, sat on the counter for a week or two, and today I finally opened the box.  Checked the initial voltages and found three at 1.51 and one at 1.52.  The charge cable is a classic USB on one end, and four small Micro USB connectors for the batteries on the other end.  I started connecting batteries, and was very startled when one of them broke in two!  Apparently the bottom portion is the battery, and the top portion is the electronics.  Alas, at least one of my batteries had a relatively weak connection between the top and the bottom.

I'm currently doing an Amazon Free Return.  In the spring I will revisit the issue.  Hopefully by then Pale Blue Earth will have improved their quality control, or a competitor will have appeared.  I still love the concept, and had I been holding the battery at the top instead of the bottom it probably would have stayed together.

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  • 4 months later...

I know a bit more about these 1.5 volt Lithium rechargeable AAA batteries now.  Amazon now has multiple brands available.  They are pretty good for constant low drain applications such as clocks.  Though they currently do need to be recharged more frequently than a disposable AAA battery needs to be replaced.

However, at least one Amazon sales representative recommends not using more than 4 of the AAA lithium batteries in series for safety, with a hard limit of 8 batteries in series.

The problem for this application is the radio draws a large amount of current over a short period of time.  These rechargeable batteries are not good for that use case.  When I tried 5 of them with my radio, the radio would not even turn on.  With 5 new alkaline batteries the radio was happy to boot up.  Though the radio's manual warns I will not have full power transmission using alkaline batteries.

For now I'll be using alkaline batteries I guess.  Though a new radio may be in my future sooner than I hoped.

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Bill:

Interesting experience with the Lithium AAA batteries.  Lithium batteries are considered to be much better than Alkaline batteries in high current drain applications.  The fact the radio would not even turn on suggests to me the batteries in series could not provide the necessary voltage as opposed to not having the capacity to power the radio. How could that be?  I may well be in error, but my SWAG is this.  A single Alkaline cell produces @1.5 volts which is why AA and AAA batteries are 1.5V batteries as they are single cells.  In contrast, a single Lithium cell produces @3.6V which means the lowest voltage you can have with the Lithium battery is 3.6V unless it is packaged with a "black box" which reduces its voltage to 1.5V.  In addition all lithium batteries have additional "black boxes" to deal with a variety of issues to make them safe, etc.  So a 1.5V  AAA lithium battery is a complex gadget compared to a AAA Alkaline battery.  I suspect that complexity also causes certain limitations in how they can be used.  For example. using Lithium batteries in a simple series battery pack designed for Alkaline batteries may well not work well to say the least because the battery management "black box" may get  "confused" and the result might be much lower voltage.  Most radios like a marine handheld will be designed to simply not work if the supply voltage drops below a specific level.  So if the in series Lithium batteries get "confused" and do not work as expected making the series voltage  much less than expected, then the radio will not turn on.  Also, they might get confused about the current drain requested and shutdown.  Either way, radio would not power up.

Might be interesting to measure the voltage of the AAA adapter filled with the Lithium batteries as a check.

Ed Lawson

 

Edited by EEL
Add that balck boxes might get confused about current as well as voltage.
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13 hours ago, EEL said:

Might be interesting to measure the voltage of the AAA adapter filled with the Lithium batteries as a check.

Actually I did.  I just didn't report it here.

I installed 5 of the AAA cells that use a small lithium battery with a small circuit board to simulate an AAA battery.  The radio did not start.  I then removed the pack and checked the voltage and found a voltage of 3 something volts.

I replaced the batteries with new AAA alkaline batteries.  The radio started.  I measured the battery pack voltage at 8 something volts.

One person responded to my Amazon question with this report:

Quote

You can wire in series probably as many cells as you like and the output of each cell is a constant 1.5 volts. If you DRAW more current than the cell is rated (about .8 amps) for then the output shuts off completely. I've wired 12 cells in series and the output stays a near steady 18 volts."

So I think while the little lithium batteries themselves might have been able to run my radio, the over current protective circuitry included in the AAA packaging prevents their use in such high current drain applications.

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Bill wrote: "I then removed the pack and checked the voltage and found a voltage of 3 something volts. " 

Seems odd given the other person reporting they used them OK in series to a higher voltage, but using many of them them in series seems a little sketchy to me.

In any event 3V definitely too low for the radio to function. 

If limited to .8A draw,  that would enable only about a watt out at best.  If voltage OK, then does have capacity for radio to function on receive.  Of course that is not why you have the radio.

Interesting the battery rated at 750mAh, but will not allow more than .8A draw.

Ed Lawson

 

 

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  • 3 months later...

An update and correction on my lithium rechargeable AAA battery reports earlier in this thread.

Using my old Standard Horizon HX850S for which I can no longer get a replacement Lithium Ion pack, only the AAA battery tray.  It turns out that with either regular alkaline AAA batteries, or the Pownergy AAA rechargeable batteries that I subsequently purchased, if the radio is set to LO (1 Watt) power, the radio will transmit with fresh batteries.  However, again with either AAA battery choice, if the radio is set to HI or Medium power, the radio crashes instead.  It is very easy to accidentally change this model's transmit power since it is a dedicated button.  However, even the alkaline AAA batteries do not last very long.  Though carrying the radio stored OFF as an additional way of sending out a MAYDAY on an expedition might still make sense.

In contrast, my new Standard Horizon HX890's manual says that it will automatically transmit use LO (1 Watt) when the battery tray is used, and says it may use LO or Med if the regular lithium ion battery is low on charge EVEN THOUGH THE SCREEN SHOWS "HI" POWER selected.  I can confirm that with the Pownergy AAA rechargeable lithium-ion batteries the new radio did not crash, and claimed to be transmitting, thought the screen showed "HI" power selected.

As of now, I plan to just carry the new HX890 radio, though I'm not throwing away the old radio just yet.

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"Using my old Standard Horizon HX850S for which I can no longer get a replacement Lithium Ion pack"

Bummer!  Batteries for some radios are available for years and years while batteries for others disappear quickly.  No way to know I assume when you buy. Nothing like having an otherwise  perfectly good bit of gear that is unusable due to lack of replacement parts. 

For some reason batteries for my my antique HX-270S are readily available and a good price.  Seems to be true for the more mundane radios which may reflect installed base.  Batteries for Ham radio HTs tend to be available for many years and long after manufacturers stop supplying which I  suspect due to size of market which invites third party suppliers to step in..

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