Radio TECHNICAL Discussion

[subaruguru]

Upon reading a parallel radio thread this morning I realized I didn't see my Standard Horizons rig strapped to my foredeck at the end of yesterday's paddle.

Damn! Was probably dislodged when I was slammed by a breaker while surfing. It was the first time I simply stuck under bungees instead of clipped to my PFD. That'll learn me....

So here we go again: which of the current crop of radios are recommended, especially for value, corrosion resistance, and use with gloved hand?

Thanks.

[subaruguru]

Cursory review finds iCom M88 for $200 and SH HX370S for $150 on eBay. Any others that are compact and tough?

I'm a little leery of Cobras and Unidens....what about West Marine's private label?

[rick stoehrer]

m88 for $200 seems like a good price IF you can still purchase the replacement insurance.

i buy all my radio's (icom) at west marine and always buy the $46 odd dollar insurance....don't have any experience with other brands / outlets and while i think i'm paying a premium, the customer service on the insurance is great....it's just "here's your new radio and do you want to buy a new insurance policy?"

i have no beef with either company in that regard...i've been quite satisfied.

[Phil Allen]

No specific recommendations, but some careful consideration of the use/controls/etc popped up here:

http://www.seakayaksafety.com/2012/08/02/choosing-a-handheld-vhf-marine-radio/

[cfolster]

Cursory review finds iCom M88 for $200 and SH HX370S for $150 on eBay. Any others that are compact and tough?

I'm a little leery of Cobras and Unidens....what about West Marine's private label?

Guy at West Marine said their private label are Uniden phones. He didn't steer us away from them specifically, but couldn't tell us why they might be superior to any others when we were looking.

[subaruguru]

Thanks, guys (and gal),

I visited West Marine, and after comparing the M88 to the latest SHs with their guru (Barry in Woburn), am settling on their private label (Uniden) VHF85, on sale from $120 to $99.

Cast aluminum case, Li-ion, small (I have small hands), REAL squelch and volume pots, HUGE display, good immersion spec, and INCLUDES the WM 3 yr warranty at no extra cost! Just too easy.

The newest SH are bulkier (thicker polycarbonate cases), and I couldn't see paying 2-3 times as much for the M88.

PS There are a few left in Danvers, but NONE in Woburn (despite their inventory tally).

[subaruguru]

The West Marine/Uniden VHF85 seems dandy. Charges quickly either 12v or 110v, and I really like the individual top-mounted painted-index volume and squelch pots for when it's tucked vertically into a PFD pocket.

3yr warranty is included in the $99 price...and a 4th and 5th year are added for only +$14. Finally a great deal in a compact, fine radio. Only wish it came with TWO power cords so I could have a charger indoors and in the car....

[djlewis]

The West Marine/Uniden VHF85 seems dandy. Charges quickly either 12v or 110v, and I really like the individual top-mounted painted-index volume and squelch pots for when it's tucked vertically into a PFD pocket.

3yr warranty is included in the $99 price...and a 4th and 5th year are added for only +$14. Finally a great deal in a compact, fine radio. Only wish it came with TWO power cords so I could have a charger indoors and in the car....

There's this review from the West Marine site...

The only drawback is the charging cord. The clips that retain the radio in the charger break too easily. When I bought the radio, one clip was broken right out of the box. I exchanged it at the store for another, which was used all last season with no issues. I took the radio out recently to charge it up for the coming season and discovered the charger clips on this one were broken too. Repair has been unsuccessful so far. It looks like I'll have to use tape to hold the charger on.

I don't have a mental image of what's going on here -- can somebody explain. Also, if it can be fixed with tape, then it doesn't seem so bad -- got lotsa tape around the house.

My question with West Marine units is how they hold up. I seem to recall one a couple of years back that was cheap and got good reviews. But then a year later complaints came in that it was cheap in the other sense -- failing prematurely. Of course, this one's got a good warranty, but it's still a nuisance.

--David

[Suz]

I have been through too many radios and my current is a M88 bought last year. It is now becoming unreliable. Good news is that the old one is now taking a charge again... go figure. So, right now I have a back up.

I had already decided that my next radio with be the West Marine whatever model with insurance. Easy replacement when they broke. Cheap enough to buy the second at the same time as the first...

[subaruguru]

David,

All user reviews were extremely positive except for the charger "clip" (Also note that the WM listing shows the 3yr warranty as +$50. It's NOT...it's FREE. An extra 2 years is +$14, as stated above.)

The charger "holster" uses two sprung levered side clips to secure geometry rather than relying on a friction fit. If they were to break off I don't know if the radio would stay secure in the charger with friction alone.

I don't see it as an issue as the holster/cable uses a separate wallwart, so a replacement is probably inexpensive.

Suz,

Yeah, the cost of the M-88 (even at eBay $199) is daunting...especially with added warranty...so I tried this VHF85.

The other WM OE Unidens are bulkier, and thus less attractive, as are the cheaper iComs.

The only other strongly attractive alternative I found a few minutes ago...perhaps a previous model SH that is compact and uses a concentric vol/sq knob (which I do NOT like as much as separate pots with indices).

http://www.ebay.com/...#ht_2391wt_1165

Yes, they're refurbs, perhaps plastic vs cast aluminum, but even smaller, yet $73 shipped (4 left in BIN auction) vs $106 w/ tax inc 3yr warranty probably makes the latter the better value for most users. I guess it depends how often ya lose one!

It's tempting to grab one for the NSPN Holiday Party, but it's outside our budget....

The slightly taller VHF85 is still slim enough to fit comfortably in a small hand, and its top-mounted knobs protrude just enough to make manipulation while inside my Stohlquist PFD pocket; maybe I'll even leave it there for easy monitoring even after I find another velcro strap for shoulder-belt mounting when in more constant use....

NOTE: Immersion standards bear explanation:

JIS7 is an actual Japanese spec of 1m immersion for 30 minutes.

JIS8 simply indicates water resistance BETTER than JIS7, but details to be delineated by the manufacturer? So 8 isn't necessarily meaningfully better than 7 unless specifics are noted.

[djlewis]

David,

All user reviews were extremely positive except for the charger "clip" (Also note that the WM listing shows the 3yr warranty as +$50. It's NOT...it's FREE. An extra 2 years is +$14, as stated above.)

The charger "holster" uses two sprung levered side clips to secure geometry rather than relying on a friction fit. If they were to break off I don't know if the radio would stay secure in the charger with friction alone.

I don't see it as an issue as the holster/cable uses a separate wallwart, so a replacement is probably inexpensive.

I was just about to buy one by mail for $99 plus extra insurance and then I saw this...

Extend your warranty protection with PLUS Plan!

PLUS Plan One-Year Warranty $18.44 USD

PLUS Plan Two-Year Warranty $23.49 USD

No, thank you

Ern -- you said $14 for two extra years. Is it cheaper in the store?

Also, the specs say 4.56" tall -- I assume that is without the antenna -- correct?

Finally, what kind of mount does it have? I am specifically y looking for a vertical clip sort of deal, since I already have a loop of gorilla tape on my pfd strap that takes a clip quite nicely. (Yes, I keep my radio on my pfd strap -- wanna fight about it? ;-)))

I guess I could go to the Woburn store, but I'm lazy and it might not be in stock. Yes, internet shopping and free shipping has sapped my moral fiber.

[djlewis]

I was just about to buy one by mail for $99 plus extra insurance

Also, has anybody used one enough to know if the 11 hour battery life is standby time or talk time?

Just for the record, the ICom M88 lists 15 hour talk time. I know that manufacturers' battery time figures are unreliable, but my experience with ICom units is that the battery never seems to run out if I'm doing minimal talking (which is essentially always the case -- I can't imagine using one hour of talk time on a trip, much less 15!). In fact, I can go several consecutive days on a charge, leave it on the shelf for a month, and the battery indicator still says full (though I do charge it up anyway).

Is the West Marine / Uniden battery anywhere near that good? I think over half the cost of handheld VHFs is in the battery. If the manufacturer's spec is 11 hours standby time, then it probably can't even get through a long paddling day, much less a weekend. Anybody have experience with the VHF85?

BTW, I am having issues with my IComs too, Suz. My old M88 just stopped working, so I got a M72. But the volume knob always stuck, and more recently I forgot to wash it over the winter and it stuck so hard the unit is now useless. But like you, I found my M88 coming back to life. So I have something, but I ain't counting on it for long.

But ohhh... that ICom battery life!

--David

[subaruguru]

David,

The CLERK at WM Danvers offered the 4th-5th warranty bump for $13.95 at check-out. I refused, thinking I'd probably lose it within the 3 yr included warranty.

Online IS different, indeed.

The battery's a 1040mAh Li-ion unit with claims of up to 11hr continuous op. I don't know if a bigger one is available, and wonder if it matters?

The ability to toggle among 1, 2.5 and max 5w transmission helps you control battery life greater than any other factor, as standby use draws minimal current. If the iCom sports a 1.3 or 1.5Ah battery then of course it would have an inherent advantage, but only very significant if transmission power is controllable? The VHF85 is a nice 10 oz too. (Batteries are heavy.)

The WH85's case is only 4.5" tall, PLUS 3/4" for the knobs...not much taller than the iCom. Its tapered shape fits well in my small hand.

That refurbed SH Voyager was their $155 model last year, and also includes a Li-ion battery! Appears to be a metal case, and have good reviews, except that it reverts to 16 when turned off. That's a bummer, so one is tempted to leave it on....maybe a good safety idea?

WM Danvers WILL get one to theWoburn store next day so you don't have to drive so far. Just get one. If it craps out lunch is on me. If it works for many years the bucket 'o steamers is on YOU!

[djlewis]

The battery's a 1040mAh Li-ion unit with claims of up to 11hr continuous op. I don't know if a bigger one is available, and wonder if it matters?

The ability to toggle among 1, 2.5 and max 5w transmission helps you control battery life greater than any other factor, as standby use draws minimal current. If the iCom sports a 1.3 or 1.5Ah battery then of course it would have an inherent advantage, but only very significant if transmission power is controllable? The VHF85 is a nice 10 oz too. (Batteries are heavy.)

I looked up the ICom M88 and M72 battery specs -- 1700 mAh and 2000 mAh respectively -- 63% and 92% more than the WM VHS85. That explains my observation that the IComs go for-evah! It matters a lot, IMHO especially on a multi-day trip.

Perhaps everybody could turn on their VHF at home after charging and note when it runs dry. I'd say use the maximum wattage since, IMHO, that's what you'll want to use on the water, and not be constantly fiddling, especially if it's on your strap. I suspect there are no complicated battery drainage issues as there are with cell phones -- it's in their software (which I used to work on). The ambient temperature is probably the only variable, so do it indoors.

The battery size alone probably accounts for most of the price difference, so be clear what you are paying for... and what corner you are cutting by going cheap.

I resolved this years ago in my mind -- it was worth the extra money for the IComs. The catch is, back then they were built like tanks -- now both my IComs have had "issues" and I'm not so sure any more.

[subaruguru]

....The battery size alone probably accounts for most of the price difference, so be clear what you are paying for... and what corner you are cutting by going cheap.

I resolved this years ago in my mind -- it was worth the extra money for the IComs. The catch is, back then they were built like tanks -- now both my IComs have had "issues" and I'm not so sure any more....

I think the battery capacity diff accounts for about $20 in price differential, not $200!

Further, the only way to test performance at transmission wattage is to physically hold the transmit button down, right?

Nonetheless, a 2Ah battery should last twice as long as a 1Ah, all other circuit aspects equal...or nearly so, which is the case in reception mode.

It's the broadcast transmission that uses MUCH more power. Can the iCom be shelved at 1 or 2.5w to conserve power? Most of the time transmission function is compromised by objects or interference, not broadcast power wattage, as I understand real-time use. Blasting at 5w in CASUAL use is the real energy pig.

I wonder if one can buy 2Ah Li-ions for the Uniden units?

[subaruguru]

For the sake of discussion: The Uniden 75 and WM 85 seem identical, and Uniden claims 55mA current drain squelched, and 1.4A in 5W transmit. With the supplied 1Ah battery that's:

19 hours receiving; 45min transmitting at 5w, 1.5 hours at 2.5w, and of course almost 4 hours (225 min) transmission at 1w.

OTOH the audio amp uses 400mA at max loudness (10% THD), limiting monitoring a Red Sox game or your favorite opera for the entire paddling pod to about 2.5 hours...barely to the 8th inning most games, or until the fat lady sings.

But I don't know of anyone who can stand constant reception at max volume....

Uniden quotes both 11 and 12 hours "combined average" use, I suspect using some formula including mostly reception and occasional transmission. I don't think these "use" formulas have an agreed voluntary industry standard for comparison purposes, but maybe there's an ASTM test or ANSI? Or an ISO?

Regardless, a dozen hours seems quite enough for even the longest daytrips, but maybe not full weekends without plugging either into your car, house, or maybe swapping in a spare battery.

(The iComm can't possibly have a 15hr transmission ("talk") battery life at 5w. To push 5w it must be burning at least an amp, and probably about the 1.4A of the Uniden. That would yield 80-120min actual transmission use (at 5w). That's one of the reasons they warn NOT to transmit with a broken or missing antenna...the radiated power can turn into heat and burn ya!)

Forgot to answer your question: the included clip is a belt-clip that friction fits, and thus useless when jostled. I've already removed its rear metal post and am using the nice supplied tether. Maybe I'll reuse its screw-mount with a velcro loop for a PFD strap. We'll see....

Hey! Any RF engineers lurking who wanna help out here?

[Pintail]

<Perhaps everybody could turn on their VHF at home after charging and note when it runs dry>

That would be (I believe) a futile experiment, David: it is the <transmitting> that drains your battery fastest -- not merely the receiving.

[subaruguru]

Comparing the receiver section and circuit current needs specs is enlightening:

The older iCom M88 sports a decent 0.25uv min signal for a standard reception, whereas the Uniden only requires 0.20uv; hence the Uniden is slightly more sensitive when monitoring channels.

The iCom sucks a prodigious 1.6A when transmitting at 5w, 28% higher battery drain than the Uniden at 1.4A, helping to equilibrate the battery capacity difference somewhat, I suspect.

Less importantly, the Uniden also sports a sharper adjacent-channel selectivity of 79dB vs the iCom's 75dB, but I don't think cross-channel signal "bleed" is an issue for us.

The iCom battery can be found cheaply ($20-30) on eBay; unfortunately I couldn't find the Uniden Li-Ion under $40 for a spare/replacement.

So why is the M88 3x the price? More rugged? Manufacturing or marketing distribution costs? I dunno....

[EEL]

The minimum discernable signal measure of sensitivity for these radios is not that important. What is important is the minimum signal needed to break the minimum squelch threshold. And then only if sensitivity matters, which it usally doesn't.

When manufacturers say the battery will last X hours they typically do so by assuming the radio is on and not receiving a signal 90%, receiving at max volume 5%, and trasmitting 5%. Current consumed is quite different for all three.

The M88 has the ability to be used for land mobile radio frequencies used by businesses which means it is a more complex, maybe, radio thant the Uniden and has more features. Not that those are used by the average kayaker.

All these tales of radios failing make me glad I rely on that old bullet proof brick of a radio the Standard HX270S.

It is true the IPX8 standard could be for less time and depth than the IPX7 standard, but I have never seen that. Usually is is only a little deeper and maybe a little longer than IPX7. If I were to spec a radio for kayakers I would ask for IPX7 and IPX6 compliance.

My limited experience with concentirc volume and squelch controls on a marine radio is they are trouble. Tend to freeze if not cleaned meticulously, but more seriously it is too easy for squelch knob to get moved by accident which basically makes it "deaf". Actually a radio without a volume knob would be a good thing too.

Ed Lawson

[subaruguru]

Hi Ed,

But sensitivity specs DO generally correlate with signal to noise ratios, which can become important in a noisy environment or when the signal is very weak. Squelch is just a variable noise filter...sort of acting like a movable capture ratio in a tuner spec? (I'm getting out of my depth here....)

Where'd you find the 90/5/5% test spec? Interesting. So it seems that the increased efficiency of the Uniden nearly compensates for the bigger battery of the iCom. Makes sense. Their operating times may be fairly close in real use.

I think my old SH was a 271...a 270 w/ FM? Can't remember the number...about 4 years old? It was tough, but the alum case pitted badly over the years. I'm hoping the powder-coated new one resists oxidation better.

My reading is that the IPX8 standard explicitly EXCEEDS the 7, with specific details to be left to the manufacturer. In this comparison the M88 is spec'ed to IPX7 (30 min at 1m); the Uniden states JIS/IPX8, specifically 30min at 1.5m (5 ft) immersion depth.

Whatever....let the better rubber seal design win.

I agree with you re concentric knobs. OTOH the separate squelch on the SH spins a little too freely...but I easily solved that by tying it with a rubber band to the adjacent antenna to provide some resistance to accidental turning.

I've seen a few refurbished discontinued HX370 on eBay. They may the replacement for the old 270, so you may be interested in one?

Cheers

[djlewis]

Ern -- The ICom M72 is $215 at Defender, and the Uniden MHS75 (roughly the same as the WM VHF85) is $90 there, a $125 difference. But the battery packs are $63 at defender and $40 at Uniden. So I was wrong about that being the price differential. I guess the proper comparison is to carry an extra battery pack with the Uniden/WM, making it $120-130 vs $215.

And you are right about 15 hours of transmit -- a typo or marketing exaggeration (so, Christopher, we can test in receive mode -- that's the crux).

Definitely worth considering the Uniden or WM. I still want a way to mount it on my PFD strap, however. And only time will tell how well these guys hold up under use. If it's $135 for 5 years, that's about $27/year as a "consumable". But if it craps out in the middle of a week-long vacation, it won't be pleasant.

[subaruguru]

David,

I disregarded the M72 because of its bulk, but now I'm not sure if it was any larger than the Uniden.

I HAVE seen an iCom battery clone on eBay for $15-20.

Yes, it'd be nice if Uniden somehow could squash a 2Ah Li-Ion into that small geometry...and I'll figure out a decent PFD shoulder mount....

Paddle Manchester w/ Leon next week?

Ern

[EEL]

But sensitivity specs DO generally correlate with signal to noise ratios, which can become important in a noisy environment or when the signal is very weak. Squelch is just a variable noise filter...sort of acting like a movable capture ratio in a tuner spec?

Well, since it is a technical discussion. If by noisy environment you mean one with many RF signals on a variety of freqs, then my opinion is the important qualities of a receiver are unrelated to senstivity and relate to internally generated harmonics among other things. Actually these qualities have a great deal to do with the ability to hear weak signals as well. It is possible for a receiver to be very senstive and still not be good regarding weak signals. Squelch and capture ratio are two different things. There are several types of squelch, but for these radios I believe only carrier squelch is used. Bascially, a circuit compares the level of white noise or hiss to the level of audio which contains what you want to hear and then silences or cuts off the audio unless the good audio exceeds the bad audio or hiss by a specific amount as determined by the selected squelch control. I assume this can get rather sophisticated using DSP. In FM radios, if two signals are on the same or very close frequencies, the radio will capture one of the signals, but will never provide audio from both at the same time. It might quickly switch or flutter betwen them, but you will not hear them simultaneously. A better radio will be able to hold the capture of the sronger signal even in the presence of a signal nearly as strong. In other words it will hear the desired signal even if the ratio between the two signals gets close to 1.

Far from the ocean and water, so my kayak related activities are limited to making obscure posts on NSPN. Sigh.

Ed Lawson

[subaruguru]

Hi Ed,

No, by "noisy" I meant exactly that; hence S/N ratio and sensitivity being the most important requirements. Indeed, with spurious and competing signals a fine capture ratio and selectivity (in FM, for music, ideally selectable too) are as important. We're starting to say the same thing....

Best,

Ern

[subaruguru]

And lastly, for those who insist on an M88:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/221095048029?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649#ht_797wt_1398