Removing Footpegs

[alcoons]

Hi.

Some good comments got me thinking at the New To Sea Kayaking Workshop. Anyone have a sense of the net weight gain of removing the footpegs and rails in a Cetus and adding foam to push against? I have a relatively short inseam (28 in) which translates into more foam.

Thanks,

Al

[Suz]

Hi.

Some good comments got me thinking at the New To Sea Kayaking Workshop. Anyone have a sense of the net weight gain of removing the footpegs and rails in a Cetus and adding foam to push against? I have a relatively short inseam (28 in) which translates into more foam.

Thanks,

Al

Not sure on weight but probably about a pound. Don't think that is a reason to do it.

I will say that the foam is expensive though. I have foam in one of my boats. I MUCH prefer the foam to foot pegs and for me it is worthwhile.

Suz

[bob budd]

I doubt the plastic tracks weigh more than a couple pounds while the metal tracks might be twice that. Its easy enough to take them out and weigh them on a scale, you might need to subtract your weight with from without the material on a household scale. If/when you put them back be sure to put gunk in the holes. And yes, the foam costs money but face it, pegs SUCK! You will also spend some time making your footrest and might lose one or two in transit as time goes by. Make it fit nice and tight so it won't come out when you (unexpectedly or otherwise) invert/exit. You can use the more rigid foams/glass to construct storage behind the footrest. I'd also consider leaving the tracks in place and carrying the pegs in a hatch, aside from being able to paddle when you arrive at the put-in and realize your footrest blew out miles ago, there is upside to having adjustable pegs as a backup.

[jdkilroy]

Al,

Removing foot pegs has nothing to do with reducing weight... this is a way of life.

This one simple modification to your kayak will transform your paddling experience in ways you can't even imagine.

Prepare yourself for something... you can never prepare yourself for.

Jon

[jeffcasey]

agree, agree, agree.

The other thing I did (besides removing footpegs and rails), was move the bulkhead several inches, so that I only needed a couple inches of foam...and increased the front hatch size some.

In addition, I took some of that **really thin** foam, and put about a 2 foot square piece along the "floor" of the boat where my heels rest. I found the bare kevlar inside surface to be both rough and cold, and with the carpet in place, the boat became very very comfortable for my feet in any position.

of course, the boat is no longer loanable to anybody substantially different in build than you, but that is often a good thing......

[Phil Allen]

Al- I've had the same problem (27" inseam). I don't have the exact number, but high density ethafoam (sometimes used for bulkheads) is about 10lbs for a cubic foot. That said, having the ability to put your feet in middle and brace is quite the benefit. Other approaches to the same solution is to put a bar across the footpegs and use that. Or a compromise of approaches, use the bar across the foot pegs as a support for the foam bulkhead for your feet.

Phil

[alcoons]

Al- I've had the same problem (27" inseam). I don't have the exact number, but high density ethafoam (sometimes used for bulkheads) is about 10lbs for a cubic foot. That said, having the ability to put your feet in middle and brace is quite the benefit. Other approaches to the same solution is to put a bar across the footpegs and use that. Or a compromise of approaches, use the bar across the foot pegs as a support for the foam bulkhead for your feet.

Phil

Thanks to all the responders so far. No question about the benefits, but the Cetus is heavy enough as it is (or am I getting weaker?).

1. The bar sounds sensible but isn't there a worry about getting your foot caught under it?

2. I like the idea of "use the bar across the foot pegs as a support for the foam bulkhead for your feet". I guess I would move the foot pegs towards the bow to allow the front of the foam to be in the right place. I assume I would also have to put some kind of strip on the floor and ceiling above and below the bar to anchor the foam well?

Al

[ayong]

Thanks to all the responders so far. No question about the benefits, but the Cetus is heavy enough as it is (or am I getting weaker?).

1. The bar sounds sensible but isn't there a worry about getting your foot caught under it?

2. I like the idea of "use the bar across the foot pegs as a support for the foam bulkhead for your feet". I guess I would move the foot pegs towards the bow to allow the front of the foam to be in the right place. I assume I would also have to put some kind of strip on the floor and ceiling above and below the bar to anchor the foam well?

Al

First, may I second it--foam really beats footpegs! It might weigh a pound or so...worth it!!

You can save a lot by using (pink) closed cell insulation for the first several layers aft of the front bulkhead. Slide the insulation in front of the footpegs, then trim a slot for the footpegs and back the footpegs into the slots, holding the foam. Cover that with a final layer of high quality black mincell foam and you have a great foam bulkhead with the footpegs still available if needed...you can look over my example in the Force 5...

Tom

[brambor]

My redneck solution (and a protest against abhorrent closed cell foam prices):

Removed the footpegs.

Kept the rails because I thought I might want to use the footpegs sometimes.

Found a broken boogie board on the beach. Cut to shape until the right shape and right fit was achieved.

Found a blue minicel foam (1 inch thick) and cut to shape too for those days when I won't wear my booties I could just add this to the boogie board fit.

Took used chinese rice sack, stuffed the boogie board art project into it and tied a knot with a string to the end.

The rice sack holds the 2-3 layers of boogie board foam together without spilling mess into the cockpit. The string allows for easy removal from the cockpit if necessary as well as holds the pieces in the sack tightly together.

The fit works great. I've spent about 20 pool sessions in this boat, soaking it up, rolling, wet exiting, practicing rescues... the sack never interfered nor dislodged.

[spider]

Pretty clever stuff.

I also like the idea of moving the bulkhead as one person did. There is a lot of lost space behind the foot pegs.

I haven't done that yet but it is probably far safer than just stuffing extra stuff down there on trips...(like firewood or dry bags)

Love the set up on a lot of ww boats...the foam goes across but is still adjustable for different users . You might be able to adapt their systems and not have all the weight of filling it completley with foam. The Liguid Logic boats are the ones I am thinking of but I think many compainies do the same.

[jason]

Pretty clever stuff.

I also like the idea of moving the bulkhead as one person did. There is a lot of lost space behind the foot pegs.

I haven't done that yet but it is probably far safer than just stuffing extra stuff down there on trips...(like firewood or dry bags)

Love the set up on a lot of ww boats...the foam goes across but is still adjustable for different users you might be able to adapt their systems and not have all the weight of filling it completley with foam. The liguid logic boats are the ones I am thinking of but I think many compainies do the same.

The other option is that when you order a boat, you can order it without foot pegs and a custom bulk head location. (If your tall you can just order it with out the foot pegs).

As for WW boats, they only have a limited adjustment before it becomes a foot entrapment issue. Many WW boats include 2 or 3 sizes for the foot pod as you move it forward or back the size of the boat can drastically change. After you get the foot pod adjusted to you (with space for the foam) you want to trim the foam to make it a tight fit to the boat. This will help provide a shock absorber and prevent your foot from being able to wedge between the foot pod and the boat when going off a drop.

This is a good video of how to outfit a WW boat:

-Jason

[Pintail]

I believe Jason's suggestion re ordering new boat with custom bulkhead is the best idea here; but that bulkhead would still need to be covered/protected by some sort of foam layer -- imagine the case of doing an "endo" with bows buried in the sand (as you conclude that nice surf run) with your feet rammed hard against the fibreglass! Recipe for very torn-up ankles, I should say...

Many seem to have a preferences for foam; but I have to say I still prefer firm footpegs -- and I reckon your boat will be <at least> 1/4kt faster...well, think of it: you're pushing against a SOFT bed of minicell foam, when you're trying to propel your boat as fast as possible? That foam must be absorbing some of the force exerted through your legs and feet -- not so? (Yes, of course this is academic and may be seen as nit-picking; but many paddlers these days are -- rightly so, I think -- keenly trying to develope a good and efficient forward stroke!)

My two -- no: <three> -- cents' worth!

[rick stoehrer]

I believe Jason's suggestion re ordering new boat with custom bulkhead is the best idea here; but that bulkhead would still need to be covered/protected by some sort of foam layer -- imagine the case of doing an "endo" with bows buried in the sand (as you conclude that nice surf run) with your feet rammed hard against the fibreglass! Recipe for very torn-up ankles, I should say...

Many seem to have a preferences for foam; but I have to say I still prefer firm footpegs -- and I reckon your boat will be <at least> 1/4kt faster...well, think of it: you're pushing against a SOFT bed of minicell foam, when you're trying to propel your boat as fast as possible? That foam must be absorbing some of the force exerted through your legs and feet -- not so? (Yes, of course this is academic and may be seen as nit-picking; but many paddlers these days are -- rightly so, I think -- keenly trying to develope a good and efficient forward stroke!)

My two -- no: <three> -- cents' worth!

christopher, you're right....that's picking on some pretty small nits.

i'd argue that my stroke is unaffected by the foam pad as opposed to the pegs but would concede on the point that <perhaps> it makes a small fractional difference in the transfer of power. maybe.

the issue with forward stroke and sea kayakers in sea kayaks is almost always in the paddler and not in the boat and it's outfitting. barton could paddle a foamed out pig of a sea kayak and i have little doubt that he could crush the fastest of us paddling a v10 (as if we could stay ON TOP of the damn tippy things!)

foam out your boat bulkhead, be more comfortable.

[subaruguru]

Sorry, Geoffrey, but soft foam ONLY reduces stroke efficiency if it absorbs heat due to compression, which is miniscule for our purposes.

Tom's followed my lead in using that cheap pink insulation board stacked up as necessary, topped with perhaps an inch or two of softer stuff if you want. It's EXTREMELY lightweight, MUCH cheaper than minicell, and if the layers are simply friction fit as "plugs" each can be removed easily for perhaps a couple of longer length leg options.

Pegs are so useless to me that if I ever order another boat I'd try to NOT have them installed in exchange for custom bulkhead add-on cost. Even when one resells the boat it's easy to adjust the bulkhead wall position with pink stuff for the next owner.

[PeterB]

Sorry, Geoffrey, but soft foam ONLY reduces stroke efficiency if it absorbs heat due to compression, which is miniscule for our purposes.

Tom's followed my lead in using that cheap pink insulation board stacked up as necessary, topped with perhaps an inch or two of softer stuff if you want. It's EXTREMELY lightweight, MUCH cheaper than minicell, and if the layers are simply friction fit as "plugs" each can be removed easily for perhaps a couple of longer length leg options.

Pegs are so useless to me that if I ever order another boat I'd try to NOT have them installed in exchange for custom bulkhead add-on cost. Even when one resells the boat it's easy to adjust the bulkhead wall position with pink stuff for the next owner.

Moving the bulkhead and adding foam is definitely the Rolls Royce solution. The only negative is resale value of your boat: if you have a bulkhead customized for shorter legs, then nobody very tall or with long legs will want to buy your boat if you want to sell it.

Moving a bulkhead is a hard job but worth it; the front compartment is now bigger; you can carry more dry stuff in there , and the cockpit is now smaller, way easier to bail if filled with water, and ,some say, a smaller volume cockpit can even be paddled when full of water, if necessary.

Yes, ordering a boat with a bulkhead sized for you is a good way to go. Standard bulkheads are generally set far forward so that a range of paddlers, from short to tall, can buy the boat.

Custom orders like this do generally take more time than ordering a stock boat, probably because a boat with custom anything (color, bulkhead, keel strip etc) has to be taken out of the production line, even though the hours involved in the work itself are not staggering.

[thief]

I put in 9" of foam since i have a 28" inseam as well....the first and the last pieces are solid....in between those layers are chunks of foam....cheaper that way....

there was no option of a custom bulkhead in a wildy tempest.....still isn't.....

the closest piece to me is angled away at the top..i took a shurform to it...much more comfortable that way since my toes are then more natural....

as you can see i left the rails for the foot pegs in....i have the pegs in storage if needed and nothing is glued in or permanent so it can be easily removed if needed/wanted...

i did pop a hole in the top of the first piece of foam to stuff my pump up there....

[44N70W]

I ordered my Impex Outer Island custom with the forward bulkhead moved aft 13.5". My inseam is 28". This adds a significant amount of storage space in a low volume boat. I also had them leave out the skeg box. With these two modifications I have enough storage space for tripping.

With an earlier boat I considered filling in the space with polystyrene foam. My thought was to make cut outs in the first two inches of foam to store my repair kit, first aid kit, mylar emergency blanket, things that I would only need to access on very rare occasions, but where they would always be there. They would have to be sealed very carefully. I figured I would put a loop of nylon ribbon sticking out of the top of the outer foam layer so that layer could be pulled out easily. The outer surface of foam could be reinforced with a layer of fiberglass cloth and resin for better wear. I never did it, just thought about it.

[tyson]

some say, a smaller volume cockpit can even be paddled when full of water, if necessary.

This seems to be a very effective technique for getting to calmer/safer water before bailing a boat. ...even if the kayak is holding enough water that much of the deck is under water. I don't know why it doesn't get more positive press.

Cheers!

Ty

[Phil Allen]

This seems to be a very effective technique for getting to calmer/safer water before bailing a boat. ...even if the kayak is holding enough water that much of the deck is under water. I don't know why it doesn't get more positive press.

Cheers!

Ty

To most paddlers (depending on the boat and paddler) it feels like a very precarious paddle the first time they try, and so they're not likely to do it again. That said, if the difference between safe and lumpy water or rocks can be measured in tens of yards its more than likely the right choice. Or practice alot so that it doesn't feel so precarious

Phil

[billvoss]

[snip...] That said, having the ability to put your feet in middle and brace is quite the benefit. [snip...]

Newbie questions.

Is this pretty much only for surfing?

How tight a fit do people create with their foam? Basically, the same locked in feeling common in white-water boats?

While I can certainly see advantages from a bracing perspective, I sure like the ability to take my feet off the pegs and stretch during a long paddle! That is one of the sea-kayak things I really miss when I'm locked into my white-water boat.

thanks,

Bill

[David MC]

For those of us with plastic boats, is bracing against a bulkhead even an option? I was told the cement between bulkhead and boat would give away under pressure. I'd love to customize (Tempest 165), but I may need to wait for my next boat if it's going to break the thing.

[bob budd]

As regards fit, most simply end up with what amounts to a shortened cockpit, i.e. a flat surface not unlike your bulkhead. This allows you to move your feet around and find different positions depending on what you are doing at the time while still providing a firm enough grip when needed.

As regards a full cockpit, I would suggest everyone go through the exercise of flooding their boat and/or cockpit to know what its like, perhaps in a pool. You will find, for instance, that a boat full of water is easier to roll up (though stopping at up can be a challenge). Turning, edging, are very different and frustrating experiences. Something like this is best experienced the first time or two in controlled circumstances.

[spuglisi]

For those of us with plastic boats, is bracing against a bulkhead even an option? I was told the cement between bulkhead and boat would give away under pressure. I'd love to customize (Tempest 165), but I may need to wait for my next boat if it's going to break the thing.

You are correct David, Placing foam against bulkheads in plastic boats is not recommended. The glued in bulkheads wouldn't hold up.

[Paul Sylvester]

Well, I like footpegs and I build kayaks...If anyone wants to sell a used pair or two of Yakima pegs you can send them in the mail fairly easy and I'll pay a reasonable amount.

Search the archives and you may find my arguements for footpegs......

contact at:

psylatmetrocastdotnet

thanks,

Paul

[jason]

Well, I like footpegs and I build kayaks...If anyone wants to sell a used pair or two of Yakima pegs you can send them in the mail fairly easy and I'll pay a reasonable amount.

Search the archives and you may find my arguements for footpegs......

contact at:

psylatmetrocastdotnet

thanks,

Paul

Paul,

I have attempted to review your 200+ posts and found a number of nice trips but I wasn't able to find your arguments for footpegs, would you mind refreshing everybody as to why you like them? If your arguments don't sway me I will give you a set of Yakima pegs.

-Jason