North Hampton Beach - Near Accident - Ethical Question?

[cathyfoley]

Today at lunch, I was walking my dogs at North Hampton Beach, NH when I came across a lady trying to venture out solo through the surf in a recreational kayak. Here was the scenario:

Her: Approximately 40-50 years old

Her Kayak: A poly Perception Acadia 11.5 with no spray skirt

Safety Equipment: PFD, which she was wearing. No other safety equipment or pump. No spare paddle.

Dress: hydroskin farmer john, NRS booties, a windbreaker jacket, pfd

nothing else

Sea conditions: Low tide (ebbing, dumping breakers 1-2 ft at the shore....large breakers 3-4 ft out about 300 yards from shore....relatively calm in between the breakers. Water temp: 41 degrees

I tried to convince her not to launch, but she insisted she was a very experienced kayaker (of course that was plainly obvious given her boat, clothing, lack of safety gear and any sense of good judgement) and in no uncertain terms, told me I should mind my own business.

She made two attemtpts to launch through the dumping surf at the shore, both times filling her cockpit with several gallons of water, which she dumped out and tried again. On the third try, she made it out, but took on a bit of water into the cockpit. So she left the beach fairly wet.

I stayed on the shore to watch. My thoughts at that time were that if she capsized out 200-300 yards in the larger breakers, she wouldn't make it to shore.

She slowly paddled out over the swell, about 250 yards out, and encountered the larger breakers. It was clear at that point she knew she was in some trouble and was having some difficulty turning the boat around. She did manage to turn the boat around and headed back to shore but got caught in some of the breakers as they formed. She nearly capsized about 200 yards off the beach, but somehow managed to stay upright. Some water washed into the kayak, but not much. There was no attempt at a brace....somehow she just balanced it. As she neared the dumping surf, she broached and capsized and went fully into the water. She did managed to slide out of the boat and struggle to shore (she left the boat and paddle in the surf) which was about 20 yards away. Her boat and paddle eventually drifted in. She was noticably shaken, shivering with cold, but still very defiante in her attitude and would not accept help recovering her boat. Once again I was told quite unpolitely to mind my own business.

So here is my question to the club members: What should I have done?

Option 1: Become confrontational and physically stop her from launching (this is America, even people with no common sense have freedom)

Option 2: Call the Hampton Beach Rescue and notify them of a potential catastrophe

Option 3: Wait and watch.. be ready to call for help (this is what I did)

Option 4: Continue to walk the dogs, mind my own business and have a good chuckle

Would aprreciate comments

[Guest _rick]

Darwin

[bob budd]

>Option 1: Become confrontational and physically stop her

>from launching (this is America, even people with no common

>sense have freedom)

Heroic perhaps but ill advised.

>Option 2: Call the Hampton Beach Rescue and notify them of a

>potential catastrophe

Not a bad idea. They might even send someone over who could physically stop her or otherwise intercede in her behalf.

>Option 3: Wait and watch.. be ready to call for help (this

>is what I did)

Also an option. Option 2 means people who are paid to do this sort of thing are involved. There's also the potential to get good gear cheap.

>Option 4: Continue to walk the dogs, mind my own business

>and have a good chuckle

I don't think I could have done this either.

[Kevin B (RPS Coach)]

>So here is my question to the club members: What should I

>have done?

>

>Option 1: Become confrontational and physically stop her

>from launching (this is America, even people with no common

>sense have freedom)

This could put yourself at risk and is not advised.

>

>Option 2: Call the Hampton Beach Rescue and notify them of a

>potential catastrophe

This would be my choice in this circumstance

>

>Option 3: Wait and watch.. be ready to call for help (this

>is what I did)

Why wait? Call now and maybe they can stop her. Option 2

>Option 4: Continue to walk the dogs, mind my own business

>and have a good chuckle

>

I couldn't do this in good conscience.

>Would aprreciate comments

[rick stoehrer]

....and your obligation stems from the "i know better than you" rule? people are free to be dumb.

#1 - you ARE kidding, right?

#2 - pre-emptive - you don't know she is going to have a problem until she has a problem. you're going to call and tell them she doesn't LOOK like she knows what she's doing?

#3 - only if the dog didn't mind standing around watching too.

#4 - since the dog WOULD mind waiting around...and my dog is more important to me than that knuckle head. you foisted your opinion upon her unsolicited, she ignored you. done.

[EEL]

I will defer to others to discuss the NH "good Samarian" law and the concept that you have no duty to intercede, but if you do intercede you are then obligated at your peril to act appropriately and in accordance with any specialized training you may have received.

I will also mention I watched a family launch in less obviously threatening circumstances, but same weather and equipment from Odirone while being watched by four F&G officers 10 yards away who did and said nothing.

Live Free or Die is more than a motto.

FWIW you took appropriate action in my opinion as I would vote for 3 even if inclined toward 4.

Ed Lawson

[rick stoehrer]

"...i do not think that word means what you think it means"

if, in her attempts at prevent the woman from launching, cathy touches the woman the word you are looking for is "assault" and not "heroic".

no touchy-touchy. never touchy-touchy.

[Guest _rick]

assault is verbal battery is touchy touchy...either way. feed the fishies...

[cathyfoley]

exactly!

[rick stoehrer]

ah-hahhh...good to know.

and that's funny - telling someone they may be wrong on the meaning of a word...and then of course, being wrong yourself! ha!

i'll stick to other quotes of the film now like "i'm used to fighting mobs" and "never bet against a sicilian when death is on the line"

[Suz]

You did the right thing IMO. Although, I might not have waited too long, depends on what else I had to do. Plus, who wants to stay around long enough to say "I told you so" and then perhaps have to get wet to help them?

Maybe harsh but almost never do you hear of the recipient of the advice heeding it with thanks.

Suz

[bethany]

Yah, I'm with Rick on this. I might have a bit of an urban mindset, but in my experience most officer types don't take Preventative actions on behalf of people, so in my imagination calling and saying something MIGHT happen probably wouldn't get much for results. Though of course, it probably wouldn't hurt either.

I think it sounds like you did the best you could. I've shouted to people in kayaks off of Coolidge Point while working as a ranger before and generally my experience was being told to mind my own business or to f* off too. Not much you can do then.

[JohnHuth]

Yikes! That's scary.

I actually was in a situation like that and I used some psychology - which is probably the only option you'd have to affect the outcome.

In my particular case, I saw a couple in a recreational kayak paddle from a harbor into a fairly choppy afternoon in Nantucket Sound. They capsized, tried their best to right the boat, but couldn't manage it. I finally got into my boat and towed them in.

The girlfriend didn't want any part of going out again, but the guy wouldn't hear of it, and wanted to go back again.

I finally said "hey, let me put your kayak on top of my van,and I'll drive you home. I'll bet your arms are really tired, I know mine would be, so why not give your sore muscles a rest?" It worked and I drove them home.

In this particular case, you might do something like "gosh, you know, I was out last week and made the mistake of wearing exactly what you were wearing and I even had a spray skirt on. Well, what do you know, I nearly killed myself, but I was lucky that someone observant was nearby and I avoided getting serious hypothermia." It's a white lie, but might save a life.

Anyway, that's I might have approached it - if you turn the conversation around from being a "know-it-all" (in their eyes) to being a "geeze, I did that last week, and nearly killed myself..." it sometimes can take the stigma out of the advice.

FWIW - was learning to roll a few years back, and not quite making it. A guy who said he was an instructor told me that I was lifting my head too soon. Well, I actually took his advice and it got me rolling in no-time.

[cathyfoley]

John:

I really didn't take a "know it all attitude". I actually just said that it look really dangerous out there and I know the water is really cold this time of year. Not a good place to be alone. But she would have none of it. In any event, she didn't drown...and that is the good thing.

[Guest _rick]

or to quote someone else I know

"bravest" and the "stupidest" are not mutually exclusive terms

[djlewis]

I'd call the rescue squad and simply tell them the facts.

No need to say there is an emergency, just inform them what's going on as objectively as possible -- without interpretation or dramatics -- and let them decide. To make sure you ahve their attention, you might start the call with something like -- there's a woman in an open, 12' kayak trying to paddle out through the breakers.

At the very least, you might get some instructions from them, perhaps to stand by and report what happens. That might also enable them to prepare for a rescue and do it quicker if needed, even if they did not actually dispatch a crew the moment you called.

--David.

[Guest _rick]

FWIW...

If you arent breaking the law...Not dying the call could be only amusement to the reciever. There is nothing requiring public safety to prevent them from exercising their God Given right to "live free and die". Pun intended..

Seriously though we cant do anything until..... except maybe question their sanity.

Rick

[Gcosloy]

Right on John. You are correct, turning the story around where you were the victim or the vulnerable one, or even the jerk, gets their emphatic attention.

[djlewis]

>If you arent breaking the law...Not dying the call could be

>only amusement to the reciever.

I doubt that. If she's in trouble but not obviously in mortal danger yet, the rescue crew may go after her. They are not a law enforcement agency, or at least not primarily, and I think they have a duty to act when there's even a decent chance of trouble.

But like I said... let them decide. I really can't see any downside in conveying information, and lots of upside. I'm sure there's plenty in their training about such situations.

--David.

[gyork]

I would say you responded very appropriately, Cathy, and demonstrated obvious compassion to a stranger . Thanks for sharing this event, for which there is no "right" response-makes for great discussion. I'd echo David's (#18) sentiments, and would give 911 a "heads up", letting the dispatcher know this was not an emergency, but a "situation" that had some potential to turn ugly in a hurry. I think Rescue would appreciate the call, and believe they wouldn't deem the notification an annoyance. Not knowing this woman, I'd like to give her the benefit of the doubt. Her head may not be right.

Gary

[djlewis]

>I would say you responded very appropriately, Cathy, and

>demonstrated obvious compassion to a stranger . Thanks for

>sharing this event, for which there is no "right"

>response-makes for great discussion.

I agree. Thanks, Cathy.

--David.

[Guest _rick]

Perhaps you'd like me to deal with a "...there is someone being stupid out here.." than coming to pull someone out of the water that really needs help? Maybe not a problem out of season. Realize there are a limited amount of resources capable of responding to mishaps and missteps. If you call you may get the polite dead ear. If you feel better do what you'd like.

Realize when dispatched a rescue unit has to prosecute (or persecute depending upon your take) to the fullest extent unless recalled by a higher authority or there is a known visible issue apparent to the rescuer that takes a higher priority.

So which is it? Dealing with a case of dumb...or saving a life?

[JohnHuth]

Yup - I think we all agree that there isn't a right answer. Just thank the stars that the woman was OK.

I know of a similar story - although this was related second hand. Chris, the friend of a friend, was walking on the beach and saw a similar situation - someone who seemed ill-prepared and didn't quite seem to have an understanding of what was going on. I think he spoke with the guy, although didn't try to dissuade him from going in. The next day, he read in the papers of the death of a kayaker in the vicinity. Chris never knew if it was the guy he saw on the beach, but it was close enough that it was quite likely. It always haunted him.

[rick stoehrer]

another quote...and this one correct...."what's the problem? no one died"

members here seem to be all up in arms about that stupid MA legislation concerning kayaks - so much so that there is an "official nspsn repsonse" or some such thing; and that's fine.

lets look at this though....to me it comes back down to education and personal responsibility over legislation. i have a responsibility to take care of myself to the best of my abilities given where i am going and the journeys i CHOOSE to take. i think most people might agree with that and have similar feelings?

my problem with the legislation proposed is that it ill defines kayaks, is virtually unenforceable (sp?) and that the measures proposed will not do what is intended - requiring a whistle and a compass are fine and all but the whistle really can't be heard very far away and a compass without a chart and both without the knowledge and experience of use are not a whole lot of good. it's feel good legislation that does nothing but hinder that activities of folks who are experienced enough to paddle about as they see fit and not get into trouble.

so that being said....the tie in and relevance to this instance is that the paddler in question was offered the education/information/warning and CHOSE to ignore it.

so, you tried education and since that didn't work you want to call the "authorities" and have them dissuade her from launching? how is that different from requiring legislation to specify launch conditions? do you want someone to legislate launch conditions? do you think that any of us have a right to specify the conditions that folks can go play in?

we've paddled big days in ugly places and i totally understand how folks might look at that and think "THAT is not safe" and they might be right...for them. had one lady look at me with horror when i told her that we were going to launch and play at the mouth of the kennebec/popham beach....and in her experience, i understand the reaction. BUT i don't think that a well prepared and competent kayaker should be outlawed from following their own journey to paddling bliss. i don't believe that folks outside of the community are suited to judging the paddler, the conditions...that moment. hell, within the community i think you should be really, really cautious about considering another's journey and trying to judge.

and that brings me back to "what's the big deal? no one died" this lady didn't die. from the sounds of things she got her bell rung and maybe had the crap scared out of her....good! what's that other quote? something about going down to the sea and being scared and so dying only now and again? this lady had a good fright....that MAY make her think twice about launching next time or even seek out some intstruction if she wants to pursue her journey. so that test has been given and she failed, right? she knows it. perhaps now, she will seek out the lesson and get the education/background/experiences that will allow her to paddle out and have a fine ole time next go round.

in short, i don't think you can have it both ways...you can't say no to legislation in one instance BUT have uncle come in and tell someone else what THEY are doing is wrong unless you're ready for that same judgement. seems hypocritical to me.

[Ken C]

This is an old saw, and i view it much the same way Rick S does. Drag "officials" or "regulators and politicians" into the fray, and a whole new can of worms opens up. Having been away recovering from injury a couple of years, as i hop back in, the same issues are still here.

Most at least some of us can probably tell of situations where we've tried to offer sage advice, or assistance and been told to "Mind our own d#@m business! It seems everyone is an expert.

As Rick mentioned, there are those of us adventerous types that have paddled in shall we say "Interesting and questionable" conditions. Training, equipment, skills, and experience can mitigate much of the risk. But there are always those that are ignorant of the very risk associated with Sea Kayaking, and try to make the jump into the "rough" without any of the above. After all this is the USA, and i don't want to be told what weather or conditions i can or can't launch in any more than the next guy.

I'd say the best we can do is to offer our advice, suggestions, and help in the least offensive way we can at the time, but we must also realize that it will most likely fall on deaf ears. Should one take the advice to heart, reward it and thank them, deep down you'll know that you helped that person avoid a dangerous situation, maybe even more!

Ken C

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