Kokatat Drysuit Warranty…

[prudenceb]

…is still good, despite worries I've seen expressed that they will not be standing by their/Gore-Tex long-standing replacement policy for delaminated drysuits.  For the…third?…time I will be getting a new drysuit.  That's the good news.  The bad news is that it will be two months before I get it.  I'm very glad I have a backup , which I will be needing for several trips this summer.  The new replacement will actually be fancier - comes with a detachable hood. No extra charge.

Prudence

[Jim Snyder]

How do you know, or what makes you suspect, that you have delamination issues? Or do you just send it back periodically for warranty inspection? 

[prudenceb]

I sent it back bc I thought feet - ?pinhole leaks, I thought,- and crotch were leaking.  With upcoming northern trip, I thought they would just replace the feet.  But they found delamination in areas that I hadn't suspected.  This is why I Iike to send suit to Kokatat for repairs and always have them do pressure test.  I've never suspected delamination in any of the suits that have been replaced.

[Barbara Ryan]

Prudence, my Women's Odyssey GORE-TEX Pro Dry Suit just arrived! I'm so excited!

What do you do about the neck actually strangling you tho? Do you trim the gasket?

[Joseph Berkovitz]

Trim gaskets only as a last resort since one tiny screwup can magnify into a tear.  Better to leave it stretched out on a saucepan bottom when not in use. 

if one absolutely must trim, use a razor blade on the gasket while stretched out as per above, don’t use a scissors. 

[prudenceb]

1 hour ago, Barbara Ryan said:

Prudence, my Women's Odyssey GORE-TEX Pro Dry Suit just arrived! I'm so excited!

What do you do about the neck actually strangling you tho? Do you trim the gasket?

What Joe said.   I have successfully trimmed gasket, but now whenever Ai get new gaskets, I ask the installer to trim for me.  Too late for that now.  Do the stretching on a round neck sized object- saucepan or plastic storage container…. 

most important question:  what color is it?

[David M]

To get sufficient stretch on a tight fit you need more than your neck size.   I like empty bleach or windshield washer fluid bottles. 

The taper at the spout end allows it to slide easily through the gasket.

If you end up going with the stretching approach, I  think you'll know after 3 or so days of stretching. 

With a new suit or gasket I typically leave the bottle in until putting on the suit at the launch.

If you do end up needing to trim, reach out again for some techniques.   

 

Edited October 9, 2021 by David M

[prudenceb]

Also, if you've never worn a dry suit before, the neck will feel tight, even when it's actually fine.  Gotta get used to something that has to be tight enough to keep water out.

[mhabich]

It does have to be tight, but there's a limit.  If you can't breathe or feel your blood supply cut off (no, not kidding), that's too tight.  I wear a small drysuit, which comes with small neck and wrist gaskets.  I have them all changed to large gaskets, which are supplied on medium and larger suits (for men; women may vary).  I still have to trim the neck gasket.  I do it with sharp scissors, use magnifying glasses, and am verrry careful.  You can't trim wrist gaskets, so Kokatat says.

[prudenceb]

39 minutes ago, mhabich said:

It does have to be tight, but there's a limit.  If you can't breathe or feel your blood supply cut off (no, not kidding), that's too tight.  I wear a small drysuit, which comes with small neck and wrist gaskets.  I have them all changed to large gaskets, which are supplied on medium and larger suits (for men; women may vary).  I still have to trim the neck gasket.  I do it with sharp scissors, use magnifying glasses, and am verrry careful.  You can't trim wrist gaskets, so Kokatat says.

True that!

[Jim Snyder]

I was miserable for a long time with a too tight neck and didn't try any of the aforementioned fixes. Recently when I had my neck gasket replaced, I was able to try on different sizes at the shop to get the best fit. So if all the above fails, there is definitely a solution. Now my neck fits great.

[billvoss]

2 hours ago, mhabich said:

You can't trim wrist gaskets, so Kokatat says.

Half true.  The stock Kokatat wrist gaskets do NOT have ridges, so should only be stretched.  However, you can trim the optional "thick" gaskets, also known as the Coast Guard gaskets.  The "thick" wrist gaskets have ridges on them like the neck gaskets.

From my perspective there are two advantages to the "thick" gaskets.  First, I think the "thick" gaskets last a little longer than the "stock" gaskets.  Second, if you know which lines you cut between last time, you can generally cut in the same place on the replacement and thus get closer to an acceptable fit a lot faster than just stretching.  (However, I suggest you record both which lines you cut between, and the total number of lines.  Just in case the next gasket you receive has a different total number of lines.  Gasket suppliers change.)

Before trimming, stretching, or trying on, the first thing I do is wipe down the inside and outside of each gasket with 303 Protectant, then put my new toy away overnight.

The next day, or later, I start trimming.  I stretch the neck or wrist over some object.  I arrange very good bright lighting.  Then I use a brand new blade.  I normally use the kind of razor blade with only one sharp side, which I pickup at the grocery store.  Using a utility knife with a new blade can also work.  (Some people swear by very sharp, very high quality scissors.)  Then I very carefully cut as smoothly as I can, the critical goal being to keep the cut between two raised ridges.  If I am cutting 2 wrists and 1 neck, then I use at least 3 new blades.  I really do cut only once per new blade.  (I often trim the gasket tighter than I think I will need, then check, then trim between the next two lines, then check.  Far easier and cheaper to cut multiple times, than to replace a gasket from trimming too much off.  So I may use 5 or more blades on a new suit.  Also be aware your wrists might not be the same size.)

Even if you are trimming a gasket, do plan on using at least a day or two of modest stretching over something a little bit larger than your neck/wrist.  Otherwise your neck/wrist will over time do the modest stretching and you will find that your gasket is too loose!  Basically use trimming to get you to the point where you can wear the gasket in an emergency, but use stretching to get to the point where you can wear the gasket without saying words not suitable for children.

When you have gaskets replaced, or have a custom suit made, Kokatat will on request install thick gaskets for the same price as stock gaskets.  However, if you order a stock suit from Kokatat they have to cut the stock gaskets off and then install the thick gaskets, so they will charge you for the gasket change.

[Paul Sylvester]

I gave up on stretching long ago and use good scissors. I cut wrist gaskets also. If too tight your hands may not get the circulation needed and I hate cold hands. Mine just failed  the Koky test so I have new booties. 

[billvoss]

On 6/15/2021 at 3:13 PM, Jim Snyder said:

How do you know, or what makes you suspect, that you have delamination issues? Or do you just send it back periodically for warranty inspection? 

When you are wet after wearing the suit in the water, then you suspect either it was sweat, a gasket leak, pinholes, or delamination.

Sweat is usually pretty uniform, not localized in say one arm, leg, or side of the torso.

A gasket leak is usually localized near the gasket.  Wrists almost always leak a little bit, though you might not notice until say you raise your arm overhead.

Pinholes resemble early delamination.  However, Kokatat can patch pinholes, so you treat it like delamination, they just return a patched suit instead of possibly replacing the suit.

If when you take the suit off, the fabric looks like it has started to bubble suspect delamination.  It will look kind of like bubble wrap, but smaller bubbles, and not so uniform.  In my experience, delamination is a progressive issue.  Meaning it continues to get worse over time with use.  Eventually some part of your body gets unambiguously wet just from wading into water for a few minutes while keeping your neck and wrist gaskets out of the water.  At that point you probably waited longer than you should (like I did this summer) to send the suit back to Kokatat requesting a water test and warranty inspection.

Ultimately Kokatat determines if you have delamination.  However, these days you have to ask for a free warranty inspection, and they are more likely to find early delamination if you also pay for a water test.  (If you are sending the suit in for another reason such as new gaskets, you should definitely ask for the free warranty inspection, and many people also routinely get a water test which also catches pinholes.) 

If you are not the original purchaser, then delamination means your suit is dying and cannot be saved; you will have to replace the suit yourself.  If you can prove that you are the original purchaser of the suit, then delamination has historically been "Winning the Kokatat/Gore-Tex lottery."  Kokatat will basically let you buy any of their suits in any size, any color, any customization applying the value of an identical replacement suit toward the purchase with you paying any difference in price if you upgrade suits.  That is how I originally switched a Front Entry and a Meridian to a pair of rear entry Icons.  Though this year I'm replacing Icons with Icons. 

(I'm not totally happy with the new Gore-Tex pro fabric this year which is too stiff for my tastes, but that is another thread.)

Edited October 10, 2021 by billvoss
typos

[SeaKayakNE]

6 hours ago, billvoss said:

 

If you are not the original purchaser, then delamination means your suit is dying and cannot be saved; you will have to replace the suit yourself.  If you can prove that you are the original purchaser of the suit, then delamination has historically been "Winning the Kokatat/Gore-Tex lottery."  Kokatat will basically let you buy any of their suits in any size, any color, any customization applying the value of an identical replacement suit toward the purchase with you paying any difference in price if you upgrade suits.  That is how I originally switched a Front Entry and a Meridian to a pair of rear entry Icons.  Though this year I'm replacing Icons with Icons. 

FYI, in some cases Kokatat will replace the suit regardless of if you are the "original owner".  Recently a student of mine purchased a second hand suit at a thrift store, sent it in for refurbishing and got back a brand new suit.

[billvoss]

13 hours ago, SeaKayakNE said:

FYI, in some cases Kokatat will replace the suit regardless of if you are the "original owner".  Recently a student of mine purchased a second hand suit at a thrift store, sent it in for refurbishing and got back a brand new suit.

Kokatat used to be very relaxed about the "original owner" rule.  After all Kokatat just charged Gore-Tex, who actually provide the fabric warranty, for the replacements.  Then the Gore-Tex Brand cracked down on them, and Kokatat became quite strict.  I don't doubt that Kokatat employees occasionally make mistakes, especially with their rumored pandemic related staffing issues.  Kokatat's support people seemed far more rushed this summer than in past years.  They made an error, that turned out well for me, on part of my replacement order.  It is also possible that Gore-Tex has not been auditing Kokatat as actively during the pandemic.

The former Kokatat representative used to tell a story about lending a replacement suit to someone who had literally worn out their Kokatat suit paddling up the East Coast.  The rep said the suit had not delaminated, but was worn through.  Kokatat HQ did send her a replacement suit for him, but said the replacement would not have any warranty, and that he needed to treat his suit better.

You might accidentally or intentionally get a suit replaced Kokatat is not required to replace.  However, don't assume you can buy a second hand suit and get warranty service.  The Gore-Tex warranty is not officially transferable.

[Brian Nystrom]

On 10/9/2021 at 4:05 PM, mhabich said:

It does have to be tight, but there's a limit.  

No, actually it doesn't. You should be able to pinch the seal with your thumb and forefinger and easily lift it off your skin.

Stretching is a generally an ineffective waste of time and it damages the seals by creating micro-tears in the material (that's how it stays permanently stretched). Trimming is very easy and your suit will be comfortable and usable NOW, not at some possible time in the future after you've stretched the seal on every progressively larger object you can think of. Trim a little at a time and test it before trimming more. Leave it slightly snug initially, until you have a chance to paddle with it for a few hours. Once you've trimmed one, you'll have a good idea what works for you and you'll be less nervous about the process in the future.

On 10/10/2021 at 1:39 PM, billvoss said:

If you are not the original purchaser, then delamination means your suit is dying and cannot be saved; you will have to replace the suit yourself.

This is not true. The warranty on the material is from Gore and they will honor it, even if Kokatat says no. IIRC, there is nothing in the Gore warranty that specifies that you must be the original purchaser and they don't even ask for proof of purchase. If you ever have a warranty claim denied on a Gore-Tex garment from any manufactuer, contact Gore and send it to them; they will make it right. I speak from experience.

[billvoss]

20 hours ago, Brian Nystrom said:

there is nothing in the Gore warranty that specifies that you must be the original purchaser and they don't even ask for proof of purchase.

Gore-Tex, at least currently, only provides a warranty to the "original" owner Brian.  From https://www.gore-tex.com/support/guarantee-and-returns

Quote

"As the original owner, hold on to your purchase receipt and we’ve got you covered for the useful life of your product."

[glad]

To trim my gaskets, I definitely agree with the 'do a little at first' approach.  I gently stretch the gasket around a plastic yogurt container or whatever works for your size: i wouldn't use a metal pan because it will dull the blade.   I use a fresh one sided razor blade,  a very good light, take a couple of deep breaths and smoothly rotate the container to maintain control.    Good luck!

[David M]

10 hours ago, glad said:

To trim my gaskets, I definitely agree with the 'do a little at first' approach.  I gently stretch the gasket around a plastic yogurt container or whatever works for your size: i wouldn't use a metal pan because it will dull the blade.   I use a fresh one sided razor blade,  a very good light, take a couple of deep breaths and smoothly rotate the container to maintain control.    Good luck!

I've also found this method works well. 

The only addition to the process I've made is to use yellow electrical tape to highlight the intended line.  The contrast of the yellow tape and the dark gasket really helps assure a straight  and smooth cut. 

[Brian Nystrom]

Thanks for the clarification, Bill.

However, when I had a problem with a Gore-Tex drysuit, they didn't even ask if I was the original owner or for any proof of purchase. The only thing the person I spoke with seemed to be concerned about was making me happy. I asked if I could order a higher-end suit than the one I had and pay the difference and he said "Tell me what you want and I'll send it right out." He refused to take any payment.

Perhaps they may be more strict now than they were then, but I would still contact them with any warranty-related issues. You have nothing to lose but a few minutes on the phone.

[billvoss]

18 hours ago, Brian Nystrom said:

I would still contact them with any warranty-related issues. You have nothing to lose but a few minutes on the phone.

I don't object to people trying, and sometimes getting lucky Brian.  However, I have met multiple individuals who purchased used Kokatat drysuits thinking paying top dollar made sense because the used suit came with a comprehensive all hazards Gore-Tex warranty.  When the legal reality is basically a warranty against delamination only for the original purchaser.  That is the misinformation I was trying to fight.

[Brian Nystrom]

6 hours ago, billvoss said:

 When the legal reality is basically a warranty against delamination only for the original purchaser.

The warranty covers all defects in the fabric, though I don't know what else would be likely other than delamination. Of course, it does not cover wear and tear, which is standard for any warranty.

[josko]

Kokatat.com <kokatat@kokatat.com>

Mon 11/15/2021 2:15 PM

To:You

 

 

Your suit is being warranty replaced due to fabric delamination. Please let us know if you want Mantis, Red or Ocean.

Happy Paddling

 

Not bad for a 12-year old suit thats seen more use than most. I did not expect this.   

[kate]

1 hour ago, josko said:

Kokatat.com <kokatat@kokatat.com>

Mon 11/15/2021 2:15 PM

To:You

 

 

Your suit is being warranty replaced due to fabric delamination. Please let us know if you want Mantis, Red or Ocean.

Happy Paddling

 

Not bad for a 12-year old suit thats seen more use than most. I did not expect this.   

Yep. I'm on suit #3, the prior two having been replaced due to fabric delamination. I think I am set for life.