HEATHER STEEVES Posted April 28, 2021 Share Posted April 28, 2021 Hi! I have a very stable 16' Boreal Designs Sedna sea kayak. She's a bit slow and heavy. About me: 33 year old woman, 5-foot-7, 150-160lbs. I've been around Casco Bay and Stonington for many an overnight camping trip, and I take most of Portland Paddle's classes ... I'm new, but pretty competent. Ideally in a few years, I'll do the whole Maine coast. About my future kayak: Will go on camping trips and have the storage to hold my stuff Will be pretty fast Will be pretty stable Will be 16+ feet long Ideally will have a rudder Ideally I can drag it across some rocks without breaking the boat (and strap it down to my roof aggressively without breaking it) Ideally it wouldn't be too heavy (my current one is 55-60lb) I'm open to used boats. I'd love any advice about what makes/models might work well for me. My email is HSteeves@gmail.com if that's helpful. Thank you all! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
josko Posted April 28, 2021 Share Posted April 28, 2021 Tarantella or Taran 16 fit your needs to a 'Tee'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inverseyourself Posted April 28, 2021 Share Posted April 28, 2021 (edited) Agree with Taran 16 or Tarantella. Nanuq Kayaks in Portland sells them. Edited April 28, 2021 by Inverseyourself Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug Cooke Posted April 28, 2021 Share Posted April 28, 2021 Hi Heather, I have enjoyed my Valley Nordkapp Jubilee (circa 2006) for this purpose for many years. It is roughly 18' x 21", very comfortable with good initial stability and a little lower secondary stability. There is an LV version of the Nordkapp you might like to try out. Note, there have been several versions of the Nordkapp over it's 40+ year history and they can be quite different in their handling based on configuration of the skeg and hull design I have read. Here are a couple of good reference links for you to explore. https://www.valleyseakayaks.com/our-kayaks/classic-models/nordkapp https://seakayakphoto.blogspot.com/2007/01/valley-nordkapp-lv-test.html Other club members paddle the LV version of this boat so you might speak to them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterB Posted April 28, 2021 Share Posted April 28, 2021 P&H Cetus LV or NDK Explorer LV might work for you. Both @ 17'6", pretty fast, pretty stable, with skegs . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigBird Posted April 28, 2021 Share Posted April 28, 2021 Are you looking for a composite boat or plastic? And you didn't mention your budget? All of the suggestions so far are composite boats which are beautiful, but on the pricey side. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HEATHER STEEVES Posted April 29, 2021 Author Share Posted April 29, 2021 I don't understand the pros/cons of composite (aside from price), but I'm able to pay for a boat under $5,000 (although I may have to save it up over a few months - it would be nice to know which boat to save for). I'm loving the idea of the Tarantella after watching some videos and reading up on her. I'll give er a try down in Portland in a week or two. Thanks, all! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigBird Posted April 29, 2021 Share Posted April 29, 2021 (edited) At your budget, you can likely get any boat you want new! The best advice any of us can give you is to demo as many boats as you can before making your decision. Try the Rockpool Tarantella, NDK Explorer (Peaks Island ME), P&H Cetus and Scorpio (poly), and Valley if you can find a dealer. I have a P&H Scorpio Mk2 MV and after trying the full line of P&H boats (composite & poly), this one was the perfect balance of stability, speed, comfort, weight, storage, and price for me. I'm sure others with far more experience than I will chime in, but to me the difference between composite and poly is the composite boats are stiffer which translates into a more lively and responsive boat feel. They are also typically lighter than poly, but not always depending on construction. Pro's of poly boats are the indestructible nature of them rock hopping or dragging across rocks and sand without concern for damaging the gel coat (spider cracks) on a composite boat. And of course price. I no longer have the NDK Explorer in my signature. It's known as one of the most stable expedition boats ever made and often comes highly recommended. But, as a relatively new paddler, I just could never get comfortable in that boat. It always felt tippy so I could never relax. I'm sure it was more me than the boat and your experience may be completely different, but it just goes to show what one considers a very stable touring boat may not necessarily apply to everyone. Demo, demo, demo. Good luck in your search! Edited April 29, 2021 by BigBird Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Sylvester Posted April 30, 2021 Share Posted April 30, 2021 There are many capable kayaks that will serve you well and you may rethink a rudder? Are you a capable camper that can downsize the kit a bit? A fiberglass kayak is fine but have a patch kit and know how to use it. Too many variables between your skill set and future plans so just go have fun this season. Suggestion..-------- When trying a kayak duplicate the weight of your kit and drinking water with some one gallon water jugs. From your other camping trips you know a loaded kayak feels different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeaKayakNE Posted April 30, 2021 Share Posted April 30, 2021 I'd consider the Cetus in lightweight expedition carbon Kevlar infusion. Great balance of weight, strength and speed. Many expeditions have been completed in these boats and they don't miss a beat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inverseyourself Posted April 30, 2021 Share Posted April 30, 2021 Cetus is probably also a bit more stable than the Tarantella. Best to try out all the candidates! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rfolster Posted April 30, 2021 Share Posted April 30, 2021 Heather, as you can see, opinions and suggestions run a wide range, so let me try to give you a few different things to think about to either help or hinder! Grab a snack and a drink, it's a long one!!! Your current boat is stable, but slow. This is a common combination, and you should understand that, for the most part, a faster boat will be less stable than you are used to. However, with a little bit of practice and patience, you should get used to it. Therefore, when demoing boats, don't let any feelings of twitchiness or instability affect your decisions too much. This is just a natural step of the development process as a paddler. You have done a lot of overnight camping trips already (assuming in the Sedna?), so any boat with an equal or larger storage capacity will suffice for continuing overnight trips. If you are looking to more extended trips, the only extra room you might need is for the additional food, water, and maybe an extra change of clothing. That will not take up much additional room compared to the amount of gear that is always needed for ANY camping trip, whether it is for one night or many. Even just an upgrade to a more packable tent or sleeping bag can offset the additional space needed. Generally speaking, going to a 16+' boat from your current 15' will probably have more storage space. You are looking for a boat that is "pretty fast" - but to the people on this forum, that can mean many different things. Are you just comparing to the Sedna, which is probably making it hard to keep up with other paddlers, or do you want to really cover some miles!! If you are just looking to go faster than the Sedna, then most any longer and/or narrower sea kayak will suffice. There is also differences in hull configurations that can get pretty technical, but basically a boat with a greater taper from the bow to the cockpit should be faster. Boats with vertical or "plumb" bow (think butter knife front) like many of the Rockpool boats, will really slice through the water and be a very fast boat, but with that high speed comes some sacrifice of maneuverability. Some might argue this, and say they can maneuver their boats just fine, but it is basic boat design physics. You ask for a boat that is "pretty stable", but that again is perception. If you want a boat faster than the Sedna, it will be less stable. The question you need to ask yourself is, how much less stability are you willing to work with in order to get the speed you want? As I said before, you should be able to get used to it, but it is just a matter of how much effort and time you want to put it. Ruddered boats is a big area of controversy. Many sea kayakers view boats with rudders as "cheater" boats, or for the less-experienced paddlers. That is, until you get into specialized boats like surf skis, then rudders are ok? My thoughts about rudders (and skegs) are that they are a tool. Period. Different tools have different uses. Boats with rudders generally need them to turn because their design does not lend towards turning the boat just by leaning or "edging". I would suggest you look further into what the differences are, how each work and why. Then make a decision on whether or not you want to stick with a rudder. My only advise is,, don't just stick with something because you are used to it. I will combine the ruggedness (dragging over rocks) with weight, as it is a mixed conversation. Basically, plastic is most rugged (nearly indestructible aside from warping), and typically heaviest (although can be similar weight to some "expedition" fiberglass boats with additional coats of glass and resin). Carbon fiber is stiff, but brittle and challenging to repair, but also the lightest. Fiberglass is most common, being a little lighter (in general) to plastic, a little flexible (but can develop cosmetic spider cracks), and relatively easy to repair. I don't recommend plastic because of the weight and speed (sorry everyone, but I believe that, taking direct comparisons, plastic is slower than fiberglass or carbon). I would also be against carbon fiber for you because you don't want to be dragging that over rocks. One option is to get a "50/50" which has fiberglass bottom and carbon fiber top, but that is typically a custom-ordered boat and might be hard to come by right now. I don't think you will go wrong with an all fiberglass boat. Overall, I think your budget is fine, unless you start looking at brand new custom-built 50/50s or expedition layups. Other options like custom colors, sparkles, or a select number of manufacturers can add to the expense. Buying a used boat has the advantage of getting something that you can easily sell again if it just doesn't work out for you, typically near the same value you paid, or at least for less than the cost of renting a couple of times. You can always opt to sell and buy a new version if you fall in love with the model. Sorry this is so long, but hopefully it was a little educational. Don't be afraid to continue reaching out to the club for help. Many people have been willing (at least pre-pandemic, and probably will soon again) to let others try out boats to get a feel for them, so it never hurts to at least ask. This is especially true if someone might be thinking of selling their current boat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EEL Posted April 30, 2021 Share Posted April 30, 2021 (edited) Heather: Some random thoughts of a biased mind. If your camping trips are three days or so, you do not need what are often called "expedition" kayaks unless you like carrying everything including the kitchen sink. Almost any 16' boat will do if you come from a backpacking background. Smaller boats are lighter, more fun to paddle, better for day use, and just easier to deal with. If you are worried about dragging a boat over rocks because you are doing solo trips, then a boat with thicker gelcoat and maybe a keel strip will give you peace of mind, but that will mean a heavier boat. My experience has been that most boats do surprisingly well being dragged over rocks now and then if you pick the right rocks. The resistance you must overcome to make a boat move at a given speed is remarkably alike for almost all boats under 3.0Kts which is a typical pace for many. Fast boats are considered faster because their resistance level is relatively less at higher speeds, but the resistance levels at higher speeds require more effort than most can provide over time. So a "faster" boat is not faster for most paddlers most of the time. In fact, a "fast" kayak can even be harder to paddle than a "slow" kayak at lower speeds. That said, some boats are more efficient at typical cruising speeds which means they feel fast in that speed range even if they are not a "fast" kayak. Such boats are great for touring as you can cover many miles at a good pace with an easily sustained effort. Not saying there are no slow kayaks, just don't expect a new kayak to suddenly enable you to be much faster. Typically people change what they like and want in a kayak as their paddling experience/skills increase. Often people will change views of what constitutes a stable boat or whether they prefer rudder over skeg for trimming a boat. As a result, it is not uncommon to go through a few boats till you hit the one that is comfortable/fits, works well for the paddling you do, and its negatives are outweighed by its positives. All boats are compromises and in my opinion the trick is to find the boat whose negatives can be lived with because its positives match what is important for you. And what is a negative to one will likely be a positive for another. I believe it often takes an active season of paddling to really form an opinion about a given boat so don't be in a hurry to say a boat is good or ill. Given the price of new boats compared to used boats, might not be a bad idea to go the used boat route unless you have spend enough time to really know what you like/need. There are some really nice used composite boats out there for @$1,000 and that is for high quality boats which will be good for another ten years at least of heavy use. Ed Lawson Edited April 30, 2021 by EEL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inverseyourself Posted April 30, 2021 Share Posted April 30, 2021 1 hour ago, rfolster said: Ruddered boats is a big area of controversy. Many sea kayakers view boats with rudders as "cheater" boats, or for the less-experienced paddlers. That is, until you get into specialized boats like surf skis, then rudders are ok? My thoughts about rudders (and skegs) are that they are a tool. Great synopsis, Rob! Regarding ruddered boats. I agree that only paddling a ruddered sea kayak can take away from the art of directional strokes and I definitely recommend learning and perfecting them in a non-ruddered sea kayak. However, nothing improves your most important and most used stroke, the forward stroke, like having a rudder. You focus on your forward stroke and leave directional control to your feet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigBird Posted April 30, 2021 Share Posted April 30, 2021 (edited) Cetus LV in NY for $2900. No relation. https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/1423702911325187/?ref=search&referral_code=marketplace_search&referral_story_type=post&tracking=browse_serp%3A91c32e2e-44fc-4930-8bec-341e9c29cbd6 Edited April 30, 2021 by BigBird Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhabich Posted April 30, 2021 Share Posted April 30, 2021 If you look around at any club day trip or camping trip, you'll see lots of Cetuses (Cetii?) and Explorers, some other P&H and NDK/SKUK boats, and some others. It's rare that you'll see a kayak with a rudder in the club. (Whether these observations suggest that these are the best boats or that we're all sheep I can't answer.) The Cetus and Explorer are proven expedition boats. Since they're popular, used examples from used hard/cheap to almost new are likely to pop up on the market. You could try a Cetus and an Explorer and work out from that baseline for speed/stability/maneuverability/capacity for your needs. Keep in mind that the entire outdoor equipment market, including kayaks and especially drysuits, is largely sold out this year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SeaKayakNE Posted April 30, 2021 Share Posted April 30, 2021 2 hours ago, mhabich said: If you look around at any club day trip or camping trip, you'll see lots of Cetuses (Cetii?) and Explorers, some other P&H and NDK/SKUK boats, and some others. It's rare that you'll see a kayak with a rudder in the club. (Whether these observations suggest that these are the best boats or that we're all sheep I can't answer.) The Cetus and Explorer are proven expedition boats. Since they're popular, used examples from used hard/cheap to almost new are likely to pop up on the market. You could try a Cetus and an Explorer and work out from that baseline for speed/stability/maneuverability/capacity for your needs. Keep in mind that the entire outdoor equipment market, including kayaks and especially drysuits, is largely sold out this year. Although i'll be up front that my opinion is biased as I look at two P&H boats strapped to the roof of my truck, Mike is correct in that both the cetus and explorer are VERY proven expedition boats. That being said like Andy said the Taran family is has becoming a staple in expedition kayaks. Best to try both. It may be worthwhile to consider how much space you will need in the boat as well for kit. Keeping in mind depending on how much and how you pack it stability may be effected. If you try a boat unloaded and find it unstable that can change in either direction depending on load. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhabich Posted April 30, 2021 Share Posted April 30, 2021 Two P&H boats on my car, and one’s a Cetus. Great camping boat, plenty fast, and I spent much of yesterday surfing in it...which reminds me that it rolls well too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EEL Posted April 30, 2021 Share Posted April 30, 2021 Out of curiosity, what constitutes an "expedition"? It seems such a commonly used word with regard to kayaks and kayak trips and applied to all manner of trips. It seems to to be used as a standard by which to judge kayaks which makes me wonder to what use it is meant to apply. Ed Lawson Shamelessly hijacking a thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhabich Posted April 30, 2021 Share Posted April 30, 2021 We were talking about rec boats once in a workshop when Keith suggested that if we’re not hunting for subsistence it’s recreation. Therefore, an expedition must involve the hunting of seals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inverseyourself Posted May 1, 2021 Share Posted May 1, 2021 4 hours ago, SeaKayakNE said: That being said like Andy said the Taran family is has becoming a staple in expedition kayaks. Only for those who want to set speed records ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HEATHER STEEVES Posted May 3, 2021 Author Share Posted May 3, 2021 This was truly an education, thank you all for your input and knowledge! I have a lot to think about and some good options to try out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beckt Posted May 3, 2021 Share Posted May 3, 2021 Why go fast? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deb Millar Posted May 3, 2021 Share Posted May 3, 2021 You've received some great advice here, which I hope will be helpful to you as you buy your kayak. I just want to add a few things. Boat fit is extremely important for the investment you'll be making. I speak from experience, 4 or 5 boats worth since I first started paddling. Like Goldilocks, I had to find the kayak that was just right for me, and not necessarily what everyone else was loving and paddling. I've gone from a Current Design Slipstream (too big and I was also too inexperienced to paddle it happily; I almost gave up kayaking because of the experiences I had with it.) to a Vela, which was one of the first boats made by P&H for a smaller person. I also was one of the few people, 17 years ago, to show up at events with it when the boats du jour were Nigel Dennis Explorers and Romany's. It wasn't until I tried an ExplorerLV, followed by a RomanyLV, that I found "the boat" for me. While no boat is perfect, NDK/SKUK (Nigel Dennis Kayaks/known now as Sea Kayak UK) kayaks work, both for fit, comfort, and building confidence. My husband paddles a Valley Avocet, no longer (sob) made; he also has a CetusLV which, sadly, spends most of its time on its rack in our basement. It fits him well, but he also isn't into long, overnight paddles. So, try as many boats as you possibly can. Paddle in flat water and in bumpy water that you're comfortable in. Because it may seem everyone else is paddling the same brand, it may not be, as I found out, the brand that makes you happy and allows you to grow as a paddler with lots of adventures to look forward to. Right now I paddle a Nigel Dennis PilgrimLV, which has been replace by NDK the Echo. My previous boat was an AvocetLV, which didn't work for me on a few levels, and before that my still-missed RomanyLV. And, not get something started here, these boats have skegs rather than rudders. The first (and only) time I paddled a ruddered kayak was on the first tour I went on.While it made sense for the outfitter to put his clients in ruddered boats, I found I preferred a keg. My words of advice (finally): Try before you buy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inverseyourself Posted May 4, 2021 Share Posted May 4, 2021 11 hours ago, beckt said: Why go fast? You can explore more in the same amount of time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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