Ken Posted March 19, 2020 Share Posted March 19, 2020 Is it possible to have group day paddles and maintain social distance? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JanetL Posted March 19, 2020 Share Posted March 19, 2020 . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prudenceb Posted March 19, 2020 Share Posted March 19, 2020 Although can still have two person boat carries - with gloves - and unload and load boat onto car with help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Posted March 19, 2020 Author Share Posted March 19, 2020 48 minutes ago, prudenceb said: Although can still have two person boat carries - with gloves - and unload and load boat onto car with help. I would think using hand sanitizer before and after two-person carries would also work. That might be easier than gloves as with gloves, you'd have to remember which side of the glove touched what. I drove down to NY with my son to clean out is dorm room yesterday. We brought a squirt bottle of hand sanitizer in the car and did double squirts every time we got in and out of the car. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prudenceb Posted March 19, 2020 Share Posted March 19, 2020 Does anyone know whether a virus can stick on a boat that has been in constant contact with salt water - either from just floating or from being splashed by waves? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Posted March 19, 2020 Author Share Posted March 19, 2020 45 minutes ago, prudenceb said: Does anyone know whether a virus can stick on a boat that has been in constant contact with salt water - either from just floating or from being splashed by waves? Unfortunately if you google covid-19 and salt water, you'll get a gazillion hits on the falsify that gargling with SW helps kill the virus. I suspect splashing with SW is too much of a niche concern right now for anyone to do any research. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Posted March 19, 2020 Author Share Posted March 19, 2020 From -- https://www.surfrider.org/coastal-blog/entry/covid-19-and-beach-water-quality-updates-from-the-research-community The virus has been shown to remain viable and infectious, at least temporarily, in natural freshwater environments including lakes and streams. While dilution is suspected to keep the risk low, high concentrations of the viable COVID-19 virus could put freshwater recreation users at risk. There was no information shared on the ability of the COVID-19 virus to remain viable in saltwater, so it’s unclear if swimming at saltwater beaches elevates the risk of contracting COVID-19. However, communal spread is a serious issue so spending time at popular beaches, if in close contact to other beachgoers, will increase your risk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alcoons Posted March 19, 2020 Share Posted March 19, 2020 For what it is worth, here is the link to an article Practice Social Distancing: Go Paddling on paddling.com https://paddling.com/learn/practice-social-distancing-go-paddling/?utm_source=paddling.com+subscriber+list&utm_campaign=a6a9947955-NEWSLETTER_03-18-20&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_f2ead8a079-a6a9947955-213796289&mc_cid=a6a9947955&mc_eid=daa314b44c Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alcoons Posted March 19, 2020 Share Posted March 19, 2020 Have been tramping through the woods a great deal recently as a relatively safe way to exercise. Since I have all 5 major risk factors (although I am lucky that they do not impact me much), I am very aware of others when I do have to pass them. The one item that is never mentioned is the impact of wind on the minimum social distancing. Even if 6 feet is the right distance with no wind, I cannot imagine it is safe when you are downwind. For example, is a large circle the best formation for a beach briefing even in a light wind? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Foster Posted March 19, 2020 Share Posted March 19, 2020 Sunlight deactivates this stuff rather quickly (so you might consider leaving those Amazon packages outside for a while, and grabbing a shopping cart from the far end of the lot). If you're worried about boat toggles, adopt the rule that the boat's owner always touches the bow toggle, and you use the same helper to assist you with unloading, loading, and beach carries, always on the stern toggle. This way, you've limited your contact to a single person, and the sun/UV exposure your boat gets on the car ride and the constant rinsing out at sea should help. That said, all of humanity is in this together, and if social distancing is our best chance to buy some time and flatten the curve, it's counter-productive for everyone to be carving out reasons for why their group activity shouldn't count as a group activity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prudenceb Posted March 19, 2020 Share Posted March 19, 2020 Dan, my question about salt water was pure curiosity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Snyder Posted March 20, 2020 Share Posted March 20, 2020 Look, most of us are old enough to have experienced a lot of crazy stuff. We'll get past this. Kayaking is something we can do at minimal risk. It's good for our mental health, which you're going to hear a lot from soon. I'll paddle with you until they start pulling us over for having boats on the rack and we'll be careful and responsible and go home and look forward to the next time. Full disclosure, PWI. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeterB Posted March 21, 2020 Share Posted March 21, 2020 (edited) I should think that sea kayaking would pose roughly the same risks or lack thereof as other adventure sports or outdoor recreational activities so it would be worth keeping abreast of whats being practiced in other adventure sports. In other words, if group hiking and mountaineering and bicycling activities are largely suspended that would be good information on which to base decisions. Very good point about the of possibility of contact in up-close-and personal activities such as rescues or incident management on the ocean: otherwise with the normal suspension of kayak activities such as potluck meals, group hugs , post paddling group foodfests , I would think that the risks attached to handling boats together would be less than virtually any indoor activity., but would be worth getting more information about. In general, outdoor activities pose a relatively lower risk than virtually anything indoors, especially on outings with the kind of group communication and pre -trip planning thats encouraged to begin with. That said, I have read that much of the Appalachian Trial through- hike "community" has disbanded (right around now is the starting time for many northbound through hikers) though that may be more due to the inevitable congregation of hikers in shelters, group campsites and resupply towns. Edited March 21, 2020 by PeterB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Posted March 21, 2020 Author Share Posted March 21, 2020 I'm not so hardcore that I have to go out in March. I would like to get out in April for some light exercise. Of course I can just run down to the Charles on my own as it's five minutes away. And I think it's a good idea to avoid anything excessively stressful as that can tax your immune system leave one more vulnerable to infection so I plan to wait for warmer weather. On group paddle, obviously it would be best to avoid any situation where assisted rescues might be needed, no rocks, no waves. So maybe sheltered harbors would be doable. My wild guess on the virus thing is it's going to get either a little worse in the short term and then start getting better several weeks from now. Or, it's going to get a lot worse in the short term and almost total social isolation will be needed for a month or two (or more). If it's the former, maybe a "practice safe-paddling" group paddle could be possible before the end of April. It's wait and see right now. I suspect the next two weeks and we'll know how bad the situation in the USA could get. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alcoons Posted March 21, 2020 Share Posted March 21, 2020 I thought Dan made the crucial point: "That said, all of humanity is in this together, and if social distancing is our best chance to buy some time and flatten the curve, it's counter-productive for everyone to be carving out reasons for why their group activity shouldn't count as a group activity." While any one group may effectively pull off social distancing, so many people still do not get it and/or do not do it well that seeing "groups activities" will only encourage them. In the last few days some members of my pickleball group have started playing outdoors saying they will stay 6 feel apart, my wife's track group had practice (very small group and they probably did it well), and I have watched hundreds of people crammed into parking lots and walking in tight groups at local woodsy locations. A neighbor commented that, "The parking lot at Horn Pond is more dangerous than Whole Foods." Of course, I should mention that it is heartening that so many people are doing "social distancing" well. I am going to paddle alone in a way that most likely will not require other people to rescue me, bike alone, walk where there is the least chance of groups and the most chance of getting adequate space. But of course, each to their own. Hell, I probably take showers that are too long. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Snyder Posted March 21, 2020 Share Posted March 21, 2020 I think kayaking is one of the few group activities that can be adapted to legitimate distancing. On the water it's a no brainer. For everything else: Don't park right next to each other. If you can manage solo paddling you've figured out how to get your boat from the car to the water and back without help. If a rescue is needed, it's because someone really made a mistake. Rescue them. I cringe at going to the grocery but I'll paddle with any of you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken Posted March 22, 2020 Author Share Posted March 22, 2020 One thing I think is critically important is no one should even begin to think about any activity that would risk injury or rescue. I follow the ski world and some people are disappointed that ski areas that have closed services aren't allowing people to hike up and ski. But any risk of a fall that could require rescue and a trip to the hospital is something to avoid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pintail Posted March 22, 2020 Share Posted March 22, 2020 (edited) <If you're worried about boat toggles, adopt the rule that the boat's owner always touches the bow toggle, and you use the same helper to assist you with unloading, loading, and beach carries, always on the stern toggle> Toggles, toggles? Who carries their boat by the toggles? They are really there for grabbing when <in> the water (ie, swimming), aren't they? Far safer to carry any boat under the hull, Dan. (There was even one British boat with shallow, almost-finger-shaped indentations under bow and stern exactly to encourage this mode of portaging -- I forget its name: it was the one with off-centre skeg) I think that the salt-water environment should itself be an encouragement to paddle since I cannot see viral organisms surviving in that medium... Edited March 22, 2020 by Pintail Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billvoss Posted March 22, 2020 Share Posted March 22, 2020 On 3/19/2020 at 11:58 AM, Dan Foster said: That said, all of humanity is in this together, and if social distancing is our best chance to buy some time and flatten the curve, it's counter-productive for everyone to be carving out reasons for why their group activity shouldn't count as a group activity. I agree with Dan. The stress is getting to me, and all my normal social gatherings and exercise outlets which help me manage stress have just become unavailable. I don't like thinking about a summer without rolling or surfing. However, I don't think group paddles would be a responsible alternative. Our generation has been called to sit on the couch. Lets not mess this up. Solo paddling, especially on low-risk fresh water, is probably an option if and only if isolated put-ins are available. If you really must paddle in a group, I suggest you form a small group of about four people who figure they will probably all either avoid or contract the disease as a group. Then paddle only with the people in that group until the restaurants are fully open again to limit the spread. Still try to maintain 6 foot spacing instead of presenting a bad example, but realize that spending lots of time together will still increase the chance or spreading disease. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billvoss Posted March 22, 2020 Share Posted March 22, 2020 Just found this model which predicts the last day each state can act to prevent overloading their hospital system. Take a quick peek at https://covidactnow.org/. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Snyder Posted March 22, 2020 Share Posted March 22, 2020 2 hours ago, billvoss said: Just found this model which predicts the last day each state can act to prevent overloading their hospital system. Take a quick peek at https://covidactnow.org/. The amazing thing about that model is the relatively modest difference between doing nothing and social distancing. On the other hand the difference between social distancing and shelter in place is staggering. I am rethinking my position. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joseph Berkovitz Posted March 22, 2020 Share Posted March 22, 2020 (edited) I have already written privately to some people about this but I’m since this is now a full-blown forum thread I’ll chime in. I’m with Dan, Al and Bill on this. Two reasons. First, we don’t really have the right to call this decision based only on the perceived risk to each other, within this group. What we do, no matter if it seems like “just among us kayakers”, can have a huge downstream effect due to the nature of a pandemic. We are all connected to other people who are depending on our actions, people who might come into contact with us or with things we’ve touched or breathed on, through no intent of their own. And they’re connected to still other people. Breaking even one link in this chain could save many lives - we can’t know how many. Second, right now, we are being called on not only to practice safe social distancing, but to model it. There are so many people out there (in all age groups) who have this wrong idea that their risks are just personal risks and they’re ok with them. I’m seeing people every day acting like nothing is any different from normal. Every time we engage in a visible group activity for recreation, we run the risk of reinforcing that mistaken perspective in others, whether we like it or not. This is a serious situation and we need to reinforce that seriousness with every decision we can take. My personal policy is therefore this: I’ll go out by myself from time to time, I will only paddle in situations and conditions in which I have absolutely no need of assistance, I will not travel substantial distances, and I will not invite groups to paddle with me. It hurts, but more important to me is that I want to feel OK about this later when I reflect on it. One final personal note. A member of my immediate family (not in Mass.) has recently come down with Coronavirus and now thankfully seems to be recovering. They are young and healthy, but let me tell you, this is not something you want to catch at any age. Edited March 22, 2020 by Joseph Berkovitz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billvoss Posted March 22, 2020 Share Posted March 22, 2020 2 hours ago, Jim Snyder said: The amazing thing about that model is the relatively modest difference between doing nothing and social distancing. On the other hand the difference between social distancing and shelter in place is staggering. I am rethinking my position. For a lot more detail on society's options this is a great article: https://medium.com/@tomaspueyo/coronavirus-the-hammer-and-the-dance-be9337092b56 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joseph Berkovitz Posted March 24, 2020 Share Posted March 24, 2020 I just want to quickly add that - like Gary - I started out in the “we can do this” camp. It was only after posting and attempting a small group paddle a little while ago that I realized it didn’t feel right to me, and that it was surprisingly hard to execute. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eneumeier Posted March 24, 2020 Share Posted March 24, 2020 No groups. As with Gary's, my local, Sunday morning hiking group has put group hikes on hold. A friend's husband has it ( tested and confirmed) after they initially thought he had a heart attack. The whole family is home quarantined. Another friend was going to get groceries for them but then could not because of exposure via his daughter, via her school. I went shopping instead. There are a lot of complaints about young people's behavior. We need to be good models. Liz Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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