Ideas on getting another boat

[Ken]

I've been paddling three season, took lessons and rented the first season and have been in a P&H Scorpio MV I bought used from Osprey for two season.  I like paddling for fitness, touring, and this last summer my skills got to the level to start going rock gardening trips and dabbling in surfing.  I really like playing around rocks.  When I ski, if the conditions are right, I spent 80% of me time in the bumps and/or trees and find I have the same fun paddling in bumpy water and around the rocks.  As far as skills, I consider myself comfortable on level 3 day paddles and in level 3 conditions.    I've been thinking of upgrading to a glass boat and last  year I was thinking of a touring boat like a Cetus.  But now I'm thinking more of a play boat.  But, I don't want a boat that's a slug when I have to paddle a couple miles to get somewhere as I aint a spring chicken as they say.  I was on a paddle last year and one guy in a Delphin was clearly sucking wind trying to keep up when we were paddling between spots.

Now it would be really great if just the right boat showed up used as I don't really want to drop >$4K on a brand new boat.  But if I could get a pretty good deal on a lightly-used or new-old-stock boat from a shop, that would be a good compromise.  I been searching around saw some boats at Newbury Kayaks.  They have a new-old-stock 2016 Romany Surf for just over $3K and a lightly-used demo 2018 Romany Surf for the same.  Not sure but I think that'd be the right size for me.  They also have a lightly used Current Design Karla and a lightly used Current Design Sisu; I don't know anything about those.  I didn't ask about the Romany Classics they have as I thought my size would be more suited to the Surf.  I'm 6', about 190lbs., size 10.5 feet (so I don't think I need a boat with extra foot room.)

So, any offer any tips on what might be the best boat for my size and skills?  Anyone have any feedback on Newbury Kayaks?  I haven't been up there yet.  There's a good chance I may wait a month r two and demo but I thought maybe talking about it now would help with my ideas for what I'm looking for.

 

-Ken

 

 

 

[prudenceb]

Newbury Kayaks is great - a great place to support!

I have both a Romany Surf and an Aries 155.  Romany Classic is a wonderful boat, but I don't think you would fit.  You would fit in the Surf, don't know about the Aries.  Surf tracks better, Aries more playful.  Plenty of us (and I am no spring chicken either!) paddle an Aries a few miles or all day to play. 

Newbury will let you test out boats, and NSPN folks will, too.  Find what YOU like.  May not be what works for someone else.

Prudence

[Mford]

I have a valley sirona 16.1 i am about to put up for sale. Playful. Should fit you perfect. Can give you great deal. In great shape. Fiberglass. Pm me if interested. I csn send you pics.

[prudenceb]

1 hour ago, Mford said:

I have a valley sirona 16.1 i am about to put up for sale. Playful. Should fit you perfect. Can give you great deal. In great shape. Fiberglass. Pm me if interested. I csn send you pics.

Mark, you're not a member so no one can PM you!  Spend the 15 bucks and join us again!

[Mford]

I have a valley sirona 16.1 i am about to put up for sale. Playful. Should fit you perfect. Can give you great deal. In great shape. Fiberglass. Pm me if interested. I csn send you pics.

[Mford]

Thats funny. Thanks for catching that. I will join again. Thanks Pru.

Ken here is a pic.

 

[Inverseyourself]

Romany Surf and Aries 155, had and have them, respectively. Love(d) both but would prefer the Aries in surf and around rocks. Aries is unbeatable in maneuverability. It’s also reasonably fast because of the specific waterline it has despite being just under 16’ long. I find the Aries also more comfortable due to the different architecture of the foredeck. Don’t be shy and put a little skeg out for tracking straight, although that’s not what the skeg is for.

I tried the Sirona. Very nice boat, feels lower volume than the other two. Very maneuverable. Volume was too low for my height and weight, unfortunately (6’5”, 215). 
 

Try them all as they are very different boats.

[Joseph Berkovitz]

If you want a playful design, I just bought a new P&H Virgo and I love it. It is a new plastic boat from P&H, at 14'. 35 lb in the CoreLite layup. Very maneuverable with tight turns and a fair amount of rocker, it also surprisingly goes faster than the Delphin (and tracks better too) whose hull design is totally different.

[prudenceb]

6 hours ago, Mford said:

Thats funny. Thanks for catching that. I will join again. Thanks Pru.

Ken here is a pic.

 

Glad to see you spent the 15 bucks! ??

[mattdrayer]

If you’re a mogul skier you might take a look at surfskis — Newbury Kayaks carries the Stellar brand and these boats are designed for speed and having fun in downwind conditions (surprisingly similar to mogul skiing).  I suggest taking the S18S and SR models for a spin.  Used boats can often be found at SurfSkiRacing.com

Matt

Edited March 2, 2020 by mattdrayer

[josko]

I have a Romany Surf and love it for rough conditions. I can't imagine a better boat for the combination of chop/current that we have in Woods Hole. I sold my Explorer last year 'cause i was spending all my rough-water time in the Surf, and have a Taran for fitness paddling.  FWIW, one of our favorite playgrounds is Middle Ground shoal near the Vineyard; I routinely take folks in Aries/Delphins there, and while they own the tiderace while there, they do struggle with the two mile transit there and back, particularly in the afternoon  when the seabreeze kicks up and we're in the trough. So, I'd say that an Aries is much more of a park 'n play boat than a Surf.

Like Matt, I've gotten hooked on downwind surfing. If you're a bump skier, you'll love it. Surf or Aries are definitely NOT the boats for that. I use the Taran and  am trying to grow into an Epic G3V10, but still don't dare traipse around with the V10 alone regardless of conditions. 

On flat water, with comparable effort, I can move a Surf at 3.5 kts, Explorer at 4 and Taran at 4.8-5. Interestingly, when moving along at a typical group pace of 3 kts, the Surf is MUCH easier to move along than a Taran. 

All that said, I think the Explorer is the best all-around hull for New England conditions. 

[Inverseyourself]

Regarding Aries speed: Aries and Delphin are different boats. Any reasonably fit person won’t have any trouble with an Aries 155 keeping up with Explorer, Romany Surf, Cetus, etc. Taran as FSK is of course a different story, as is a surfski, but Ken wants a playboat for non-downwind surf and really likes rock play.

[prudenceb]

1 hour ago, josko said:

I have a Romany Surf and love it for rough conditions. I can't imagine a better boat for the combination of chop/current that we have in Woods Hole. I sold my Explorer last year 'cause i was spending all my rough-water time in the Surf, and have a Taran for fitness paddling.  FWIW, one of our favorite playgrounds is Middle Ground shoal near the Vineyard; I routinely take folks in Aries/Delphins there, and while they own the tiderace while there, they do struggle with the two mile transit there and back, particularly in the afternoon  when the seabreeze kicks up and we're in the trough. So, I'd say that an Aries is much more of a park 'n play boat than a Surf.

Like Matt, I've gotten hooked on downwind surfing. If you're a bump skier, you'll love it. Surf or Aries are definitely NOT the boats for that. I use the Taran and  am trying to grow into an Epic G3V10, but still don't dare traipse around with the V10 alone regardless of conditions. 

On flat water, with comparable effort, I can move a Surf at 3.5 kts, Explorer at 4 and Taran at 4.8-5. Interestingly, when moving along at a typical group pace of 3 kts, the Surf is MUCH easier to move along than a Taran. 

All that said, I think the Explorer is the best all-around hull for New England conditions. 

Josko,

What is it about the Taran that makes it such a good boat for downwind surfing...and do you say Surf and Aries are definitely not good for it?

Thanks for any explanation.

Prudence 

 

[BethS]

They don't make 'em anymore, but if you can find a used Nordkapp LV, it does tick all the boxes you have mentioned (although some say it is too tippy!) I have one and totally love it. It is really a jack of all trades boat, pretty fast, pretty good at surfing, pretty good at rocks, GREAT running downwind and surfing wind waves, and just a lot of fun to paddle. But it is definitely not great for photography, and a bit hard to pack for camping (although it does fine for carrying a load).  And it is not the best boat at any one thing. Definitely not a rock and surf specialist like the Aries. And some say it is too tippy...  But, I use it more than any other boat. If i could have only one it would be my choice.  It's kind of a nice sportscar kind of boat, just really fun for varied conditions and day paddles. If you want to try mine out sometime feel free to drop me a line.

Beth

Edited March 4, 2020 by BethS

[josko]

Pru, the short version is that a Taran is made for controlled moving at 7-8 knots, and  playboats are just not. Remember that a wave's speed is proportional to (the square root of) its' length. So a 16' wave(length)  moves along at ~5 knots, and a Romany can catch it just fine. However, that's a pretty short wave. When they get to , say 25', they are moving a 6-7 ish knots; it's hard to accelerate a Romany to catch it, and when you do catch one, it'll start bouncing and otherwise misbehaving on  plane.  A Taran will just 'stay calm' and do what you want until ~40-50' (wavelength) seas , when a surfski will just trounce it (because they move fine at 10 knots.)

Second thing is the rudder. (Because of orbital wave velocity), surfing kayaks like to broach. A combination of skeg, ruddering and edging works, but a rudder is just soo much easier, allowing the paddler to focus on surfing strategy and linking rides. 

Third, a rockered kayak is a bit like an upside-down airplane wing. It develops downwards lift and makes it harder to 'pop' a boat on plane. A straight hull section amidships avoids that. 

C'mon down this summer and try all three!

(This does NOT apply to beach waves, whose speed is proportional to water depth.)

Edited March 4, 2020 by josko

[mbhazeltine]

Maybe I missed it but no one is suggesting a Cetus.  It is a huge step up from a scorpio - similar to an Aries but a little quicker but less responsive.  Once this virus abates you are welcome to paddle mine Cetus MV and my Aires 150.  I believe a RICKA paddler is selling an Aries150.   If you look at the Aires be aware there are two styles of cockpit outfitting - a style similar to the Scorpio and a style similar to the Cetus.

[Ken]

14 hours ago, mbhazeltine said:

Maybe I missed it but no one is suggesting a Cetus.  It is a huge step up from a scorpio - similar to an Aries but a little quicker but less responsive.  Once this virus abates you are welcome to paddle mine Cetus MV and my Aires 150.  I believe a RICKA paddler is selling an Aries150.   If you look at the Aires be aware there are two styles of cockpit outfitting - a style similar to the Scorpio and a style similar to the Cetus.

I have considered a Cetus MV.  If I was a reckless purchaser, I would probably just go out and buy a Cetus and a more maneuverable boat for rocks/surf.  I haven't 100% decided which way to go if I get one.  Of course, under current circumstances, I can't demo.  In the spirit of virtual, would you be able to relate what I'd notice in difference between my Scorpio and a Cetus, the two boats seem to fill  the same niche in plastic/glass in the P&H line?

[Joseph Berkovitz]

There are two main differences. The Scorpio is slightly shorter than the Cetus and of course they are made of different materials. That last point sounds vacuous, but in fact plastic feels significantly different from composite even if you clamp down all the other parameters. The Scorpio hull is a little more flexible and some of the paddling energy you put into the boat will go into flexing its hull - think carbon bike vs steel bike frame. It just doesn’t feel quite as efficient and crisp in its motion and handling. But they are both great boats. 

I have a Cetus MV and a P&H Virgo as its playful plastic sibling. I find this a perfect combo. The new Virgo is a foot shorter than the Aries and has a pretty different hull, I really love it for play. 

[mbhazeltine]

Ken - I love my Aries and Cetus.  I did not find the Scorpio to be as comfortable nor as efficient.  You need to paddle a boat to decide what you like and what works for you.  We can arrange a test paddle this summer when it makes sense.

[David M]

Ken- I echo Mike. 

Important disclaimer.  I am a committed P&H fan.

I absolutely love my Aries (155) and my Cetus (MV).    I pull out the Cetus for  fitness paddles, long group day paddles without rock and/or surf temptations, or camping.  I paddled the Scorpio on an extended international trip.  I was pleasantly surprised, but it was no Cetus.  I like Joe's analogy for the comparison.  The Aries has become my go to boat 85% of the time.  IMHO it shines both in the rocks and in the surf.  Conversations will sometimes lend to talking about it's sluggishness for an extended paddle, but honestly it's not been an issue. 

If I was in your position, I might hold onto the Scorpio and strongly consider the Aries.

Once the season is in full swing and trips abound, I'd be glad to hook up and give you a chance to try both boats. 

Cheers!

David

 

[Inverseyourself]

Ken, I echo David M, Mike and myself.

The Aries 155 won’t disappoint !

Andy

[prudenceb]

On 3/4/2020 at 3:05 PM, josko said:

Pru, the short version is that a Taran is made for controlled moving at 7-8 knots, and  playboats are just not. Remember that a wave's speed is proportional to (the square root of) its' length. So a 16' wave(length)  moves along at ~5 knots, and a Romany can catch it just fine. However, that's a pretty short wave. When they get to , say 25', they are moving a 6-7 ish knots; it's hard to accelerate a Romany to catch it, and when you do catch one, it'll start bouncing and otherwise misbehaving on  plane.  A Taran will just 'stay calm' and do what you want until ~40-50' (wavelength) seas , when a surfski will just trounce it (because they move fine at 10 knots.)

Second thing is the rudder. (Because of orbital wave velocity), surfing kayaks like to broach. A combination of skeg, ruddering and edging works, but a rudder is just soo much easier, allowing the paddler to focus on surfing strategy and linking rides. 

Third, a rockered kayak is a bit like an upside-down airplane wing. It develops downwards lift and makes it harder to 'pop' a boat on plane. A straight hull section amidships avoids that. 

C'mon down this summer and try all three!

(This does NOT apply to beach waves, whose speed is proportional to water depth.)

Josko, if world ever returns to semi-normal I would love to come down and take you up on your offer!

 

Edited March 26, 2020 by prudenceb

[Ken]

On 3/4/2020 at 1:31 PM, BethS said:

They don't make 'em anymore, but if you can find a used Nordkapp LV, it does tick all the boxes you have mentioned (although some say it is too tippy!) ...

Beth

I also paddle with RICKA and have done a number of rock gardening paddles with them.  One guy has a Nordkapp.  He's the one we're always towing out of the rocks after he flips over. ?  And keep in mind, although I don't consider myself a rank novice any more, I probably have a 1/10th the experience, or less, a lot less, of anyone on this thread.  ?

-K

 

[Marshall]

On 3/25/2020 at 9:22 AM, Ken said:

"Of course, under current circumstances, I can't demo." 

Of course you can demo.  I'll stay 6', 16', 56' or so away while you play with a Cetus, or anything else from the Fleet.  Harbor can be open even if the Store is closed.

Marshall

[BethS]

On 3/27/2020 at 2:35 PM, Ken said:

I also paddle with RICKA and have done a number of rock gardening paddles with them.  One guy has a Nordkapp.  He's the one we're always towing out of the rocks after he flips over. ?  And keep in mind, although I don't consider myself a rank novice any more, I probably have a 1/10th the experience, or less, a lot less, of anyone on this thread.  ?

-K

 

Yeah, it probably is a boat best suited to those who are rather broad in the beam (low center of gravity!) such as myself..  Don't sell yourself short though, get a boat that you can grow into rather than out of.