Spray skirt question

[mhabich]

8 hours ago, dlapenson said:

…It took a lot of force to remove it, you needed to grab the loop with both hands, lean back and using shoulders and abdominal muscles….

Lean back?  Are you pulling back on the loop or pushing forward?

[PeterB]

 Nick,
New  composite kayaks often have minimally prepared cockpit coaming rims , meaning that they've been minimally trimmed to size and sanded so they are acceptable but  can still be  a  bit sharp and uneven ,  meaning in turn they can use a bit more prep, mainly in the form of sanding.  Take a look and do a braille- like  exam on the edge and underside of your cockpit coaming rim:   If it's not perfectly  smooth to the touch, sanding the edge (rounding it a bit)  and the underside (that's hard to see)    can perhaps create a smoother release of the spray skirt. A good litmus test is: if you're wearing latex surgical gloves and stroking the cockpit rim rips the latex,  its too ragged & needs sanding .   A smoother cockpit rim, especially with 303 ,  will also be kinder to your spray skirt, which can wear out right along where it grips the cockpit, sometimes in an  alarmingly short period of time.. 

[Frederick Goodman]

More tips: Tie a wiffle ball to the grab loop to make it easy to find in an emergency.   Practice releasing your spray skirt on land, with your eyes closed, one-handed, with either hand.  Make it part of your mental checklist for launching to make sure the grab loop hasn't got caught inside the boat.   Also try squiggling out of your boat (in a swimming pool or lake, with a safety person standing by) without releasing the spray skirt; either the skirt will release from the boat, or you will leave the skirt behind attached to the boat, assuming sufficient motivation. 

[Barbara Ryan]

I learned yesterday upon returning to our Little Mystic launch after Prudence's terrific "New Year's Day 2024 Paddle" with 17 or our awesome friends, that even with the LARGER deck of the Seals 1.4 that I was wearing since learning that my Snap Dragon Med. deck is too small, that I STILL can't get enough forward reach to get my skirt off at all with one hand, grabbing the loop, and only got it off with 2 hands after two tries.

I am thinking about gluing some sort of rubber strip under the cockpit lip, maybe 12" in length, so that the skirt isn't fitting as deep in that area.

What do you think?

 

[David M]

I had to replay it in my mind.

I'm 99% of the time using both hands with forward lean and some initial slight downward pressure to clear the coaming in one quick motion.  

Otherwise, you may be inadvertently pulling to the side with the one hand approach and fighting the coaming rim.

Definitely worth practicing on dry ground and with a friend upside down. 

[EEL]

Barb:

If you are sitting in the boat without skirt on and lean forward as far as you can with arms outstretched, how far in front of the cockpit rim are your hands?  Perhaps the loop needs to be shorter?

I dimly recall this issue being a problem for Gail as she is short.  It was really only resolved by getting a boat designed for a small person and thus had an appropriate sized cockpit opening.

Ed Lawson

 

 

 

 

 

[Barbara Ryan]

I will practice for sure!  But as Ed said, this issue may have more to do with my reach.  I am about 4'11' and it is challenging for sure to reach beyond the front edge of my coaming on my Cetus LV (which I otherwise and loving!). I plan to clean her tomorrow and will get in a practice and see what I can make happen about getting out.  

Thanks Ed and David!  This is an important subject.

[Jim Snyder]

I second David's post. Nothing wrong with using two hands. That's what the other hand is there for. Your paddle will likely be trapped between your body and the cockpit for that brief moment you're unsprayskirting and getting out is job one.

[Joseph Berkovitz]

Let me share a timely story that hope will be of aid to others. This is partly about spray skirts but at least as much about wet exit form and practice.

Last week I decided to practice my roll, since it had been a while. I did in fact roll up on my 2nd try and continued on my merry way. I was in calm shallow water near a beach and had never, ever missed a wet exit out of what feels like hundreds.

At the end of the paddle I was moved to roll again (same safe location), but I was tired and this time it didn’t go as well. After three blown rolls I decided to bail. But… for the first time ever, in decades of paddling, I could not find the grab loop by swiping for it with my free hand (my other arm held the paddle.) I concluded that the loop must be trapped under the rim, although I’m always careful to check. At this point I was afraid because I was running out of air and there was no one to help me or notice something was wrong.

(Side note: If you’re thinking of blaming this mishap on paddling solo, consider how long it could take to notice and hand-of-god-rescue a capsized kayaker on a typical group paddle - also a dangerous situation. Of course I accept that solo is more risky, but let’s leave “never paddle alone” responses out of this if you don’t mind; it’s a different topic than the one I want to illuminate here, and it wouldn’t eliminate the problem.)

Back to the situation. I was using my IR Klingon skirt which is very snug and tight. I tried but couldn’t release it with my knee. I semi-rolled up again to grab a breath, let my paddle go, and then used my feet and both arms to brute-force myself out of the cockpit. I can’t tell you exactly how I did that but I was very, uhhh, highly motivated. At the end of this improvised act of survival I was swimming with my head above water, with the spray deck still completely attached to the boat. I flipped the boat - and there was the bright yellow grab loop, staring me in the face. It had been there all along, waiting to be grabbed. Thought-provoking, eh?

I’ve been thinking hard about this episode, one I don’t ever want to repeat, and here are some reflections:

- in a high consequence situation like a failing wet exit, the first response had better be the one that has the highest probability of success.

- I had fallen into a habit of using an improvised technique (the one handed swipe for the loop) that worked nearly always, but turned out to have a rare mode of failure. When it failed, I didn’t immediately revert to the tried and true technique (running both hands up the coaming to find the loop), the same one that I would teach any novice.

- when you are afraid and struggling for air is NOT a time when it is easy to stop/assess/plan/execute. There has to be a learned and practiced sequence of actions and fallbacks that don’t have to be thought about. But instead, I flailed. I went to plan B (knee release) and plan C (force body out any old way) before even trying plan A (find the grab loop in a reliable two handed way). Plan B did not work with this skirt, and I had never tried Plan C. Fortunately I can report that Plan C, to the extent that one can even call it a plan, can actually get you out of a boat. And if you did bury the grab loop, which I hadn’t, that approach might be your only recourse. 

Perhaps my single biggest takeaway is this set of recommendations, which I intend to make real for myself:

Practice wet exits. With a buddy. Multiple times a year. Even if you’ve never failed one. Practice every variation of it: one handed, two handed, knee, whole body. Make doing the right thing in the right sequence a matter of instinct. 

 

Edited January 3 by Joseph Berkovitz

[mhabich]

There's also Plan B.2, grab both sides of the skirt and pull.  Works with my Snapdragon (so I allege), probably wouldn't with IR.

Plan C wouldn't work with a spraydeck with suspenders, and I wouldn't use one of those for that reason.

Most important is Joe's point:  if you haven't practiced lately, do.  What worked with your old spraydeck won't work with your new replacement, because it's nice and snug and you forgot how anyway.  Practice on your composite boat with a sharp coaming, not just your plastic boat.  See you at the pool or the pond.

[prudenceb]

Thanks for the scary account, Joe.  You sure got my attention.  Practice, practice, practice.  I'd probably be better off spending pool time extracting myself from my boat various ways than "working on my roll,” which at this stage of the game will likely never be any form of reliable. 
 

Prudence

 

Edited January 3 by prudenceb

[Barbara Ryan]

Thanks for your thoughts and suggestions David, Ed, Jim, Mike and Prudence. 

I agree with you- I will use two hands and try to keep my paddle  somewhere, maybe under my arm.

OMG Joe!!!!  I am having to tell myself to BREATHE as I held my breath during your entire story!!  That IS a FRIGHTENING and POWERFUL account! 

 I am soooo glad that Plan C worked and I really appreciate you sharing your reflections: thought process and conclusions. I totally agree with your that "Bottom line" is to practice, practice, practice the "tried and true" technique! 

 I went out and sat in my boat in the yard and practiced that many times after reading your post.

I am now finding that if I lean as far forward as possible- fold myself in half, then I CAN pull the loop forward and up freeing my skirt.   I just have to lean WAY farther forward than in my Avocet and even the Tempest.   All good!  I do need to practice in the pool now too. 

Until now I didn't really think about the differences in wet exits from the various skirts and coamings in my little fleet. 

I am really glad that Jim noticed that I was having such a hard time getting my skirt of my Cetus, and then Prudence told me that my snap dragon deck was too small and now I am learning the importance of practicing  in EACH of my boats and skirts, even with the proper size deck skirt.

What a cautionary tale and an important thread and lesson to have in our Forum archives. 

I am grateful and  looking forward to our next paddle.

Barb

[Karen Volkman]

I appreciate the reminder as I'll be getting in a "new to me" Qcc700X in a couple weeks.

Carl did teach us the pull on the sides for personal wet exit or when your hand of God fails for your buddy. (Your unconscious buddy will float out of the boat.) However, never tried with neo gloves.

[billvoss]

When I stand next to someone before their first wet exit, besides telling them to bang on the bottom of the kayak if they want me to rescue them, I usually tell them this story.  Which somewhat resembles Joe's story above.

A long time ago now, I took an AMC Boston White Water course intended for paddlers who had a pool roll, but not a reliable combat roll. The course finished with us spending a few hours at a wave train "play spot." Basically a bunch of standing waves extending into a calm pool of water. The students went into the waves and intentionally capsized, then tried to roll up. There were a bunch of safety boaters present to rescue your kayak and gear if you wet exited instead.

Towards the end of the day I stubbornly tried, and tried, and tried many times to roll up until I was very low on air despite having lifted my head many times. When I finally gave up, I bent forward to reach my grab loop and instead hit my helmet on the bottom! During my attempts I had floated through the pool, and over a sandbar down stream of the pool. So instead I pulled the skirt off on the side, and then used my hands to push out of the kayak. I was surprised my feet were a bit tangled, but managed to flutter kick free and make it up to the glorious air.

When a safety boater flipped my kayak up, they found the skirt was still on! The skirt had only come undone on the starboard side, it was still attached on the front, port side, and rear. Clearly spending time pulling the skirt off on the side had been wasted effort. Who needs a grab loop?

At that time the white water skirt I had been wearing did not have suspenders, but my sea kayak skirt DID have suspenders. After that event, I removed the suspenders and have never again used a skirt with suspenders.

I have never had a skirt with a secondary release, but one of these might also solve your issue @Barbara Ryan.  You can normally grab the "knee" strap with your hands, or sometimes raise your knee to trigger it.  Just do NOT put a RAND skirt on a composite kayak, or wear suspenders!

https://www.nauticexpo.com/prod/paddle-people-gmbh/product-195468-534552.html

https://zetkayak.com/products/baller-87-sprayskirt

https://palmequipmenteurope.com/gb/whitewater-spraydecks/2262-11679-enduro-deck-2023#/21-colour-jet_grey/93-deck-r4/94-waist-xs_s

-Bill

 

 

 

[Barbara Ryan]

Thanks Karen! I look forward to seeing you in you new Qcc700X!

And another great cautionary tale Bill.  So many factors and unforeseen conditions can happen.  Sounds like best to have a couple of tried and true exits. 

My Seals does have little loops on the side but I tried grabbing and using them to release the skirt yesterday to no avail. 

I wonder how they are meant to be used?

Maybe I should attach a band connecting 2 of those side loops, opposite one another, and see if that works for a Plan B.  (using my knees didn't work). 

I am so glad we are having this conversation.

[mhabich]

Device to fit on the loop to lever it over the cockpit rim. No idea if it works. 
https://www.seaflowdesigns.com/shop?store-page=SPRAY-DECK-EASY-RELEASE-S-M-L-Universal-p461090236

[Frederick Goodman]

I had an experience similar to Joe's once, which motivated my post earlier in this thread.   The wiffle ball trick is worth a try.  

[Inverseyourself]

Near entrapment happened to me once during a pool session. I think I just brute-forced myself out of the cockpit. It was a wake up call.

I wrap electrical tape tightly around the entirety of the soft loop of my extremely tight-fitting Snapdragon skirt. It creates a very stiff loop - almost a handle - that is easier to feel for than a floppy loop. I use yellow to make it visually conspicuous underwater.

I am guilty of not practicing despite above event ~ 10 years ago. It is especially important with gloves during cold weather paddling. I am making at least a mental checklist of the wet exit procedure. Very helpful to keep Bill’s skirt-caught-on-the-other-side-of-the-cockpit-rim episode in mind during urgent submerged troubleshooting!

Hey Joe! Solos are dangerous😜

[Joseph Berkovitz]

Hey Andy - paddling with you is dangerous too! 😉

[Inverseyourself]

25 minutes ago, Joseph Berkovitz said:

Hey Andy - paddling with you is dangerous too! 😉

😂

[Ricardo Caivano]

 Thank you Sue for pointing this very important thread, which I was not following... 

And thank you Joe and everyone for sharing your stories and for your suggestions. Frankly, I had never thought that it will be hard to get out of the boat while upside down... your postings have changed my mind. I will practice with my thickest gloves...

[Barbara Ryan]

Yes! Thanks for everyone's sharings!

I hadn't thought about what a difference the gloves and pogies make either!  I also need to practice with them on.

With my rainbow zipper I don't see me getting out of my skirt as part of a plan.  I'll stick to practicing getting my skirt off!! 

  Maybe one of our warmer day but in drysuits paddles we can go over and share the various ways to exit and even practice them while upright in our boats together to talk about differences we notice. 

[Barbara Ryan]

Mike, that Sea Flow Easy Release device is really interesting!  Makes sense if pulling up on it automatically pulls the loop farther forward of the coaming overhang. 

Of course Amazon doesn't carry it.

 I have sent an email to the Canoe Centre asking what needs to be measured to decide what size device to order. 

https://www.canoecentre.ie/en-us/products/sea-flow-spray-deck-easy-release?contact_posted=true#product-request-form

We shall see. 

Thanks for that info.

[Pintail]

It sounds as though you'd like an ocean cockpit, Barbara; but they are becoming harder to find, these days.  The sprayskirt loop is so close to your stomach!

<The wiffle ball trick is worth a try>  When North Shore Kayaks on Route 1 was still in business, Joel always sold new sprayskirts with these attached.

[Deb Millar]

Actually, Joel's shop was New England Small Craft. We still have pens and wiffle balls from there.

Great place.