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Sea kayaker numbers


josko

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3 hours ago, rfolster said:

Matt, I must wholeheartedly disagree, but this is only my opinion.  I think that the most fundamental reason for people to join clubs is to find other people to paddle with, and the benefits are secondary. 

As far as NSPN is concerned, I don't think we are concentrating on creating an interest in sea kayaking, but instead trying to provide education and a sense of community to those who are already interested. 

I actually consider the fact that there are other people to meet via the club one of its benefits, if not its greatest benefit :)

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1 hour ago, josko said:

I did not imply 'NSPN' by using the word 'Club'. If anything, I was thinking of AMC, but I fdidn't intend to be even that specific.

Sure, I just thought it might be useful to inject a more concrete example into the mix to test the argument.  "NSPN" could have been written as "AMC" as well, in which case I personally think there's a lot of headscratching when it comes to offering sea kayaking benefits to club members.  After all, it's the Appalachian Mountain Club, so why move into the sea kayaking space at all?

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4 hours ago, rfolster said:

As far as NSPN is concerned, I don't think we are concentrating on creating an interest in sea kayaking, but instead trying to provide education and a sense of community to those who are already interested. 

So this is where things get interesting, imho, and is along the lines of the point I was trying to make earlier.  Let's say NSPN offers these two great benefits (community #1 and education #2) to members, and total for the year these benefits cost the club $100 and operational overhead is $10.  There are 10 members, and so the cost of membership is $11 to cover $10/member benefits plus $1/member operational overhead.  If an 11th member joins the total cost of community+education benefits rises to $110 and operations now costs $11, still at $11/membership.  All 11 members are completely satisfied with these awesome benefits, and the club could probably go on and on forever this way.  So there basically is no incentive to increase interest in sea kayaking outside of the club in this case.  In fact, to Josko's initial point, there may even be a disincentive to add members, in order to ensure optimal access to these benefits for current members (read: no waitlists!)  If someone outside the club happens to get interested in sea kayaking on their own, they may discover NSPN and decide to become a member, thus receiving the club's benefits.  

Is this an issue?  I dunno, it actually doesn't seem like it to me.  If the club's fiscally sound / financially sustainable, and able to deliver great benefits at a price all of the members are willing to accept, then everyone's happy.  Why mess with a good thing?

Edited by mattdrayer
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11 hours ago, josko said:

I was pretty involved with the AMC 'till it dawned on me that I was leading the same dozen people over and over again. AMC seems quite willing to invest in developing a sea kayaking program, but nobody seems to know what concretely to do and propose to them.

(Note: I'm sorry if I'm becoming annoying with this conversation, but I seem to be quite passionate about this topic -- who knew?!!)

So here is a good example of a club -- the AMC in this case -- not providing a valuable-enough community benefit to satisfy an existing member when compared to the cost being incurred, and so the member decided to leave the club.  Josko, are you still a member of AMC for other reasons?  I am a member of AMC (have been for a long time) and did a handful of paddling trips with AMC Boston Paddlers ~5 years ago, but stopped for similar reasons.  I do attend trips/programs with AMC Boston Climbers, however, so overall my membership still provides benefits for me outside of kayaking.  However I've been considering dropping my AMC membership over the past couple of years in favor of the American Alpine Club, which provides more specific benefits for my particular interests, for approximately the same cost as an annual AMC membership.

What I also find interesting is Josko's comment that additional funding may have been available to improve this benefit, but it was apparently not taken advantage of.  Why not?  I would have expected that a "donation" to the program from AMC HQ would have been jumped on immediately - I mean, what club/program wouldn't want to take advantage of additional funds to provide more/better benefits to club members for the same costs?  We're basically talking about free money, right?  Is this where the issue of "leadership" comes into the picture?

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 I gave up on the AMC because I htink the club is much more interested in making money from their lodging operations and real estate than introducing people to the outdoors.  They ARE willing to consider funding proposals to expand their member base, inlcuding sea kayaking; however, noone within the Boston chapter (sea kayaking) could come up with any ideas to propose.

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18 minutes ago, josko said:

 I gave up on the AMC because I htink the club is much more interested in making money from their lodging operations and real estate than introducing people to the outdoors. 

Yes, I've considered this as well for a long time.  Being a not-for-profit, I've often wondered what the ultimate end-state is for the AMC's efforts.  The AMC's stated mission on the website is "Founded in 1876, the Appalachian Mountain Club promotes the protection, enjoyment, and understanding of the mountains, forests, waters, and trails of America’s Northeast and Mid-Atlantic regions."  The club is executing on their Vision 2020 plan, via five strategic initiatives:

  1. Expanding the Size, Breadth, and Strength of the AMC Community (read: increase membership)
  2. Getting Kids Outdoors (read: develop future members)
  3. Leading Regional Conservation Action (read: increase probability of future existence)
  4. Realizing the Larger Opportunity in Maine's 100-Mile Wilderness through AMC's Maine Woods Initiative (read: acquire property/assets)
  5. Advancing Excellence in Outdoor Recreation and Leadership Training (read: educate members on proper property/asset usage)

In addition, the Join page describes the following benefits of membership:

  1. Access over 8,000 activities each year: paddling, biking, hiking, camping, skiing, climbing, and more
  2. Save BIG on lodging and goods: 20% off lodging, 10% off gear, 20% off books and maps. Plus more deals from AMC partners.
  3. Get inspired with AMC Outdoors: your members-only magazine...
  4. Feel satisfaction and pride: know your membership protects your favorite outdoor spaces.

I find it interesting that 1) "paddling" is the first activity listed, and 2) per Robert's earlier point, no mention here of access to a huge community of like-minded people (100k members by 2020!).  It's important to note that AMC performs an enormous amount of fundraising, which allows them to make progress toward all of these goals without increasing the cost-benefit ratio of actually BEING a member.  One could argue that when a club gets to the point that fundraising is necessary to deliver benefits to members, it has crossed into unsustainable territory.  This is a similar perspective to a certain type of political viewpoint on the role of government.

So for the AMC, does it make sense to expand into sea kayaking?  I don't think the AMC is interested in simply having a sea kayaking program for the sake of having a sea kayaking program.  The AMC does own some coastal properties, and so there is an incentive to create a sea kayaking revenue stream at those locations.  But I think the AMC is less concerned with developing a program for local sea kayakers to simply take trips to the Harbor Islands, or the Ipswich River, or Casco Bay.  That aside, it does present an interesting opportunity for someone interested in developing a jewel of a sea kayaking program without having to raise funds on their own.  One essentially has resources at their fingertips, and a huge base from which to build a community.  But you do have to play by the AMC's rules if you're going to do it, because the club holds the purse strings.

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That aside, it does present an interesting opportunity for someone interested in developing a jewel of a sea kayaking program without having to raise funds on their own.  One essentially has resources at their fingertips, and a huge base from which to build a community.  But you do have to play by the AMC's rules if you're going to do it, because the club holds the purse strings.

The strength and weakness of AMC sea kayaking, at least in NH, is all trips are led, and while the leader can screen participants, most participants are in NSPN terms L2 paddlers.  There are relatively few people qualified to lead trips who want to lead a bunch of AMC L2 trips.  However, for those that do, AMC membership and AMC leader status is a very inexpensive way to get liability insurance for the free trips you lead.  Lack of leaders seems to be the main constraint on AMC NH sea kayak trips.

I wrapped myself in the AMC liability umbrella to teach some beginners rolling this summer, and all it cost me was my annual AMC membership fee plus following the AMC process for trip approval and liability waivers.  For me that was a lot easier and cheaper than getting an ACA rolling certification and paying for ACA insurance.  Of course as an AMC volunteer leader you must volunteer your time, not try to make money.  If you want to make money as an independent, as far as I know ACA and maybe BCU are the only viable games around here.

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Do you really need liability insurance for helping someone learn to roll, even if you're not charging any money for it?

In the legal sense, I'm not a lawyer so I cannot answer that question.

We know that repeatedly telling someone "now capsize" carries some amount of drowning risk.  Even as a layman, I would expect doing that as a formal rolling instructor must carry some liability risk.  Especially when I am not "certified as a rolling instructor" by some organization like the ACA or BCU.

In the financial sense, nobody can afford to insure against all possible risks.  It is generally not worth insuring against small risks which do not significantly endanger your standard of living.  So generally you should carry high deductibles, and should not buy extended warranties.  Liability insurance covers a very unlikely but potentially huge risk.  So I do like to have liability insurance when I can get it cheaply.

In practice, I don't feel much need for specific liability insurance when I am helping people I know with their rolling.  Even when I am helping absolute beginners who wander into a pool session not knowing how to roll my concerns are minimal with a life guard present and a bunch of witnesses.  However, this summer I was posting AMC "trips" promising to teach people how to roll.  I had never met half of my students before their first lesson.  Though the lessons were on a public pond, there wasn't necessarily anyone else around to act as an independent witness if something went horribly wrong.  So yes, having the students sign a liability waiver, and knowing I had AMC liability insurance was to me worth the AMC bureaucracy and my annual AMC membership fee.

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This thread went in a lot of directions, but the basic question is still there: should a club (AMC, NSPN, RICKA,...) try to increase the dwindling munbers of 'serious' sea kayakers, and if so, how

I tried to do something within AMC, and was disappointed. I see the manufacturers are trying to do what they can, (rom a standard marketing 'playbook), i.e. sponsoring team riders, symposia, and various evennts, but the nubers are dropping.

There's an argument for doing nothing, and seeing a dwindling base. From some points, such as accessibility of MITA campsites and overall wildewrness experience, this is good, but will invariably reduce the number of meetups, symposia, and other organized events. Gear might get harder to come by and the development/improvement rate slow. Coaching will become less accessible.

I'm still on the fence whether to let things be and enjoy the solitude (i.ie. lack of other kayakers) vs facing difficulties of getting together a group of competent folks to attack, say, Mddle Gound shoal ,the Plum Gut, or a local kayak symposium.

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So I was thinking of putting up a sea kayaking poster in front of my office. Something that might catch the eye, draw folks in  and get them to talk to me about sea kayaking.  And maybe even try it.

Trouble is, I can't even figure out what one might look like,  (nevemind where to find one). So what would a poster embodying our sport show? Pretty sure it's not a dude going down a 100' waterfall, or in some mongo Welsh tiderace;  also, someone floating in front of a small Maine island doesn't quite get it across. A Cape beach screams rec boat... So, is there an image that embodies your  concept of sea kayaking? Oe that might recruit additional interest in what we do?

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13 hours ago, josko said:

So I was thinking of putting up a sea kayaking poster in front of my office. Something that might catch the eye, draw folks in  and get them to talk to me about sea kayaking.  And maybe even try it.

Trouble is, I can't even figure out what one might look like,  (nevemind where to find one). So what would a poster embodying our sport show? Pretty sure it's not a dude going down a 100' waterfall, or in some mongo Welsh tiderace;  also, someone floating in front of a small Maine island doesn't quite get it across. A Cape beach screams rec boat... So, is there an image that embodies your  concept of sea kayaking? Oe that might recruit additional interest in what we do?

I have a large chart of the local waters hanging in my office.   I am thinking of adding a 2nd one.

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  • 10 months later...

I wanna bring this back up 'cause I really am concerned about the demise in sea kayaker numbers. I'm not seeing ANY near Woods Hole this summer, where just 5 years ago there were large groups paddling essentially every weekend. It's like a kayaking ghost town down here. Are we seeing the same trend elsewhere?

Edited by josko
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Yes, this has come up in conversation in the last couple of years.  This year and last , on a 4- day NSPN  trip to Stonington in mid - July, we noticed how few kayakers there there seemed  to be  in the area , which has long been considered  one of the country's  sea kayak hot spots.
As near as I can make out, sea kayaking was at its peak  around the  late 1990's ,  maybe @1998-  to 2003. , before my time. When I first got into sea kayaking  , @ 2004 or 2005 ,  I read Atlantic Sea Kayaker a lot and got the inkling that that spots like Stonington had been  thriving sea kayaking areas ; I think Hells Half Acre ( an idyllic and accessible kayak camping island )  might have been  closed to campers  for some period  after 2005 due to overuse, and when we stopped there this year and last ; no campers or kayakers.  
It seems to me there is  a small but steady  trickle of paddlers entering  the sport seriously, otherwise most people you will see on the water are casual dabblers in  general outdoor watersports/ outdoor pursuits.   

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FWIW, stopped briefly @ Crow in Muscongus, and found ~10 tents set up.  Couldn't tell if it was an outfitter with clients or private paddle like ours (nobody home).  OTOH, we paddled day trips last week with parties of 3, 5, and 3, M-Wed, respectively.  Maybe the day trippers are out there, but we've just missed seeing them (kinda like the lobsterman joke).  We did invite a single to join us Wed. but he took off in the other direction.

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Our "Tuesday night" group has been talking about it again as well.  Last week's race had five participants (four men and one woman), and that's been fairly typical for this season.  My Boston Paddling Meetup Group experiment has been a bit disappointing -- lots of new events posted, 200+ new members have joined, several outfitters have joined, members are suggesting/organizing their own events, etc.  However it hasn't driven as much growth as I'd hoped for the Tuesday night group.  I know that Ed over at Kayak Learning Center is selling a lot of boats, but I'm not seeing those people joining the community.  There are some good indicators, however --  400 registrations for the 2017 Gorge Downwind Championships and the cap is being increased to 600 for 2018.  I've also noticed an increase in race participation from RI/CT paddlers, much of it due to the effort of a couple guys located there who are really passionate about building the sport + community.

Edited by mattdrayer
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It is interesting reading this thread. I'm 65 yo.  I've watched the changes over the years.  When I was a young guy it was all about paddling tripping canoes on trips and in local whitewater, also whitewater kayaking and C-1s. As the years went along there were fewer and fewer people doing any real canoe tripping.  Rec kayaks took over the world.  Sea kayaks came on strong. Driving on i95 in northern new england and you saw very few canoes on cars and trucks. Tons of kayaks.  Right now my impression is that kids are not spending time in the outdoors in the same numbers that they once did and that is slowly eating away at the numbers of paddlers of any sort. I could be wrong, but that is my impression of where we are now.

As far as joining groups and group paddles - I think many paddlers are not joiners.  Many are in the sport for the solitude and peace it provides.  I know that is how I feel.  We tend to find people in our communities that are like minded. 

This June I went on a short 5 day canoe jaunt with a friend in northern Maine to a spot we often frequent.  We had the area to ourselves. Not another paddler to be seen.  Truth is, we enjoyed it a great deal.  It was odd though, in the past there would be many paddlers in that area at that time of year.

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On ‎8‎/‎15‎/‎2017 at 11:58 AM, mattdrayer said:

... much of it due to the effort of a couple guys located there who are really passionate about building the sport + community.

Matt, this brings us to the original point of the thread: what can a motivated and passionate person actually DO to help build the sport and the community.

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7 hours ago, josko said:

Matt, this brings us to the original point of the thread: what can a motivated and passionate person actually DO to help build the sport and the community.

Be welcoming to enthusiastic, cautious, new-ish but athletic paddlers and let them come on trips ;)  (you DID do this for me on an AMC trip, Josko, a couple years ago - and it was much appreciated)

As a relatively novice paddler, it was/is VERY hard to find people to paddle with. I'm smart enough not to go out and get myself into trouble on my own but got a lot of "sorry we don't know  you / you need BCA level blah / send me a 10 page paddling resume" when I tried to join trips. Super discouraging. Soooo I spent an awful lot of $ on formal kayak training. Way more than I spent on my used kayak! I got a ton out of the instruction and don't regret any, but it would have been nice to be able to tag along with more of the group stuff I see posted.

Of course, just as I started getting some actual experience I had a non-kayaking shoulder injury and have missed this whole summer. Bummer. Hope I can try the tag-along thing again next year.

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Glad I was able to help you out. Unfortunately AMC's paddling outreach got mired in club 'politics' and petered out (in Boston, anyway). I've been looking for an alternate venue to contribute my time since.

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<... what can a motivated and passionate person actually DO to help build the sport and the community>  (You forgot the question mark)  Josko, after two pages of this, I still do not understand why you are so worried or concerned.  I kayak; you kayak; he, she or it kayaks; we kayak; you kayak; who cares whether or not <they> kayak?  This question has been asked for almost as long as I can remember (because of club membership numbers -- decline thereof -- primarily) and, apart from the general trend of things, I guess it is natural that activities such as ours rise and fall in popularity...as Paul or someone pointed out, the high-point was likely way back in the nineties and early years of the new millennium.

I did my time on the BoD long ago and we were discussing this same (perceived) problem back then: are we any the wiser now?  I doubt it!

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@Pintail I'm pretty sure it's not just perception -- we were down to four participants tonight for a course with a cracking downwind leg and great waves to ride -- the kind of stuff the group has been hoping for all season.   Where was everyone?   Some didn't show because they decided the conditions were too much for them, and of course that''s always the right decision.  For others, it was mainly other commitments.  Not so much that they were off mountain biking or kiteboarding or another activity.  It's more along the lines of "I really want to be there, but I can't."  It seems they have more important things to do (work, kids, etc.) than fool around in a gale with a boat and some friends for a couple hours ;)

 

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This thread always fascinates me as well.  I did a lot of road tripping around New England this summer and saw a lot of kayaks being car-topped but very very few were actual sea-worthy boats; tons of rec kayak junk.  A couple of weeks ago I was at Tom Holt's Top Kayaker shop and he told me that Necky will be going away entirely.  As we know, they've already gotten out of the composite business.  I do think some producers of real kayaks will remain but it'll be an increasingly niche product.  I think the real ocean side of the sport will remain as well among devotees and some out-of-the-mainstream newcomers but I don't foresee significant growth.  One paradoxical outcome of that unfortunately might be that the elitist subculture mentioned above and often decried by John Dowd and others becomes even more entrenched.  Is that a possibility, inevitable, a problem???  Who knows?  But as someone else said, at least you'll have more parking at the launch site and an assured campsite at your destination.  

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