Wrist tendinitis and drysuit gaskets

[mhabich]

On the MDI trip, a couple of us ended up with tendinitis an inch or two above the wrist over the high part of the radius. It struck me that this must have been caused partly by the pressure of the wrist gaskets on our drysuits. Any other experience or thoughts?

[ejwilliams]

I've had this happen to me also, only while wearing drysuit. Would love some suggestions on how to alleviate or prevent this.

[Suz]

I get this with a drysuit and/or gloves.

One way to alleviate is to use a larger gasket or install what is called "thick" or Coast Guard Gaskets which are conical shaped. The larger gasket or conical shaped do have less pressure or less contact area so it is a trade off - sometimes my sleeves get wet if I am sloppy about my undergarments sticking under the gasket. They are also a little more difficult to install as they want to "creep" up during the installation process.

These are available from Kokatat and are stocked in two places - Newbury Kayak and Canoe and Osprey. BOTH of these retailers will either sell them to you for DIY or they will swap yours out for a fee. You can also have done by Kokatat when sending in for other repairs. Small wrists don't usually do well in the conical shaped thick gaskets and do better in the larger sized gasket if they aren't too big. You can stop in at either of those shops and just try on the gaskets.

Suz

[Brian Nystrom]

I always trim my wrist seals for a comfortable fit. If you can't pinch them between your thumb and forefinger and easily lift them off your skin, they're too tight. They don't need to be uncomfortably tight to seal well.

[Suz]

There are two styles of wrist gaskets - straight or conical.

Straight gaskets are shaped like a funnel and have a part that bellows out and then the couple of inches of straight gasket. Trimming this still will provide all the contact in a more narrow band and will usually feel worse, not better. It also usually doesn't provide enough contact to maintain watertight seal. So straight gaskets are not meant to be trimmed. It is usually better to simply stretch these. Make sure they are not dried out (gray/powdery), apply 303 and wipe off per directions, then pull the gasket over a beer bottle and leave on for a week or so and then try the gasket on. It is usually more comfortable. If not, swap out the size small gaskets for large. If the large aren't big enough - go to the conical gaskets.

Conical gaskets are shaped like a traffic cone. On the inside of the gasket there are concentric lines. These are trimming lines. Try on the gasket and if too tight, take off, turn inside out, trim between the lines and take off one line at a time. Too much happens too quickly, so really, one line at a time.

When ordering the conical shaped gaskets from Kokatat they are referred to as "thick" gaskets or Coast Guard gaskets as they go in all the CG drysuits.

On the inside of every gasket from Kokatat is a size and date (month/year). Take a look if you aren't sure what size gaskets you have on your suit.

[Brian Nystrom]

I beg to differ. I have been trimming "straight" seals successfully since my very first dry garment and it works just fine. Reducing the length of the tight area does NOT make them "feel worse". It definitely improves blood flow, as a smaller area of the wrist is constricted by the seal, seal pressure in that smaller area does NOT increase and the overall pressure on the wrist is greatly reduced. Additionally, if it's trimmed to the point that it's comfortable (as I described above), it provides a watertight seal and eliminates issues with cold hands and wrist soreness. Straight seals still have a tapered section, it's just more abrupt than on conical seals. This means that once you get close to the right fit, you have to trim in smaller increments until you achieve the desired fit.

While this may not suit your personal preferences, it works fine for me and many other people. Please stop telling people that it can't be done or doesn't work, as that's simply not true.

There are two styles of wrist gaskets - straight or conical.

Straight gaskets are shaped like a funnel and have a part that bellows out and then the couple of inches of straight gasket. Trimming this still will provide all the contact in a more narrow band and will usually feel worse, not better. It also usually doesn't provide enough contact to maintain watertight seal. So straight gaskets are not meant to be trimmed.

[Suz]

While this may not suit your personal preferences, it works fine for me and many other people. Please stop telling people that it can't be done or doesn't work, as that's simply not true.

Brian - we are just going to have to agree to disagree on this one.... Your asking me to stop telling people it can't be done or doesn't work would be the same as me saying it to you.... Your belief is that trimming has solved your issues. My belief is that there is a better way to solve the issue. So, every year you can tell people your method and every year I will tell people the other choices.

[Michael_Crouse]

Can we get some volunteers to trim one wrist gasket and stretch the other one? That season is almost upon us. :-)

[Brian Nystrom]

Brian - we are just going to have to agree to disagree on this one.... Your asking me to stop telling people it can't be done or doesn't work would be the same as me saying it to you.... Your belief is that trimming has solved your issues. My belief is that there is a better way to solve the issue. So, every year you can tell people your method and every year I will tell people the other choices.

If only that were the case. Allow me to add a bit more context to the subject.

Stretching seals only works well if they're reasonably close to a good fit to begin with. If you have a substantial difference between the seal size and your wrist size - which is often the case with factory installed seals - stretching often doesn't work at all. Additionally, attempting to stretch seals enough to accommodate a large size disparity damages them and shortens their lifespan. That leaves trimming as the only viable solution for that situation and contrary to your assertion, it works. There's no point in cutting off perfectly good "straight" seals that can be trimmed to fit comfortably in order to install conical seals that will also need to be trimmed to fit; it's a waste of money. Sure, once the original seals wear out and need replacement, you have a variety of sizes and options with essentially no difference in cost, so people can choose whatever they need at that point.

What I object to is your unnecessarily expensive solution. Changing seals multiple times to find the perfect fit is neither inexpensive nor convenient for people who don't do their own repairs (remember, DIY types like us are the exception, not the rule). I am simply explaining that there is no need to do that until the original seals are worn out, since any type of seal can be trimmed to fit.

If you want to dispute any of this, that's your prerogative.

[Phil Allen]

Hi all

Thread drift, but it's not clear to me how trimming a straight gasket ends up changing the size? I agree with Brian that stretching is minimally effective, as we spend good money for latex and its elasticity (which means it returns to original size after stretching). Neither stretching or trimming straight gaskets ever worked well for me, so I did switch the straight for coastguard gaskets (thanks for the recommendation Suz).

Best

Phil

[leong]

>>Trimming this [straight gasket] still will provide all the contact in a more narrow band and will usually feel worse, not better.

Suz,

The pressure (force per unit area) against the contact area will be the same as if there was no trimming. However, the total force (pressure * contact area) against the arm is decreased as the contact area is reduced. Perhaps reduction of total force will be more comfortable because it improves blood flow. If this is so then Brian might have a valid point. But Suz might also be right since it might depend on the individual wearing the seal.

Brian,

>>…the overall pressure on the wrist [with reduced contact area] is greatly reduced.

I think you mean overall force, not overall pressure.

[Brian Nystrom]

Yes Leon, that's exactly what I meant. There's a simple way to validate this. Find a few rubber bands of the same size (for cyclists out there, a chunk of inner tube is perfect), that will fit pretty tightly on your wrist. Put one of them on and see how it feels. Then start adding them, positioning each beside the others (not on top), to simulate a wide rubber seal. Then you can judge what feels more comfortable.

As for the effect of trimming a "straight" seal that Phil asked about, what you end up doing is removing the bulk of the straight section (typically ~1"), so what's left is the taper and a short straight section. In the case of a very large size disparity, you may end up removing all of the straight section.

I want to make it clear that I agree that tapered seals are a good choice for these situations; my point is that if you have straight seals, you can make them work and use them until they're worn out.

[Suz]

Cost of a wrist gasket $17.00

Cost of Kokatat replacing your wrist gasket $39 plus shipping

Cost to learn how to DIY $0

I will do a gasket changing at Newbury Kayak and Canoe in October (they are working on their calendar), most likely it will be a Thursday night). The plan is to change one gasket on a garment brought in by a customer. If nobody brings in something they want to change out, then I will use one of my demo suits. (If more than one person brings in a garment, then we can draw names from a hat or something to decide who gets there gasket done.

The plan will be to have all the gaskets there and so you can try them on and see how they feel PRIOR to being installed on the suits. This is a good opportunity to try the coast guard/thick gaskets on in person.

Personally, I wouldn't recommend just living with the pressure on the nerve if it is occurring - it can cause numbness and tingling and severe discomfort on the water. Do something to prevent it whether it is trimming, stretching or replacing.

[Jeff Frigon]

So..... lots of options for the mechanical solution.

I would like to offer some additional thoughts on the actual PROBLEM caused by aforementioned combination of paddling AND mechanical compression of gaskets.

Like many of us, I have had to modify my paddling over the years to deal with various injuries; some caused by paddling, some not. For me this includes tendinitis, knee and shoulder issues and carpal tunnel syndrome.

First, let's look at WHAT tendonitis IS (From web MD)

Tendinitis (also called tendonitis) is an inflammation or irritation of a tendon, a thick cord that attaches bone to muscle.

Incorrect posture (paddle posture/technique) at work or home or poor stretching or conditioning before exercise or playing sports also increases a person's risk. Other risk factors for tendinitis, include:

• An abnormal or poorly placed bone or joint (such as length differences in your legs orarthritis in a joint) that stresses soft-tissue structures.
• Stresses from other conditions, such as rheumatoid arthritis, gout, psoriatic arthritis, thyroid disorders, or unusual medication reactions. (OR DRYSUIT GASKETS)
• Overuse or doing too much too soon when the tendons are not used to a movement or to the task taken on. Tendinitis is common in "weekend warriors," people that play and exercise hard only on weekends.
• Occasionally an infection can cause tendinitis, especially infection from a cat or dog bite to the hand or a finger.

So.... more than likely, all things being equal, add to the equation repetetive motion associated with paddling in all kinds of conditions, gaskets may be the proverbial "straw" that breaks the camel's back... possibly limiting circulation via restricted bloodflow to the respective tendon, and thus exacerbating inflamation as a result.

IN ADDITION to any mechanical fixes/experimentation that will vary DRASTICALLY across the infinite spectrum of individuals and their (similarly vast) gear choices, some things that can be done prophylactic, mid, and post-"event" are as follows.

and....Please note that these are what have worked for me and are based on the advice of Docs and PT's and OT's and other outdoor enthusiasts and may not work for you. I have HAD to do ALL of these in conjunction to be able to continue to paddle on a trip.

In no particular order.

1. Stretch your business: before, during breaks, and post paddle. Be gentle and start slow... you don't want to tear anything.
2. Ice your buisiness: As long and as often as you can stand it.If you are wearing gaskets, the water is cold. As long as it's colder than your body temp, it will do at least SOME good. Pre-paddle, Lunch/break-time, and post paddle
3. Anti-inflamatories: If you know you are prone to this condition and can tolerate ibuprofen (advil) OR Naproxen (Aleve), get some on board prophylactically in the prescribed (see the bottle or talk to your DR.) dosage a day or so prior to, during, and post trip.
4. Change what you are doing: Change up your Paddle technique, paddle (shaft, blade size, etc), posture, gasket choice (see above), cadence, intensity, grip location (closer-in or farther out on shaft), kayak (yay! another excuse to solve the N plus one question: number of boats/paddles/garments necessary equals one more than currently in your quiver).
5. Take more breaks
6. Paddle fewer miles: Something is better than nothing, after all. I had to bail on a Maine coast through-paddle and "settle" for 3 shorter multi-day trips based out of Vinalhaven so I could deal with carpal tunnel recovery. This was vastly different than the high mileage "plan," but didn't suck in any way (got to use my hammock more).

I hope this helps out, y'all.

Good luck in your adventures!

Jeff

[Brian Nystrom]

Be careful with ice and anti-inflammatories; they should only be used for acute injuries, not as prophylactic measures. The inflammatory response is what causes muscles and tendons to grow and strengthen, what's commonly known as the "training response". Anti-inflammatories and icing blunt this response and slow growth and healing. While they are beneficial when the inflammatory response gets out of control (strains, sprains, tendinitis, etc.), they should not be used for the normal aches and soreness caused by exercise. That minor soreness is a good thing, as it indicates that you exercised enough to do yourself some good.

Recent research on stretching has reversed long-held beliefs about its benefits. Stretching actually reduces the strength of muscles by up to 30%, so it should not be done before or during exercise. However, post-exercise stretching can be beneficial. The best way to avoid injuries is to warm up gradually and thoroughly before engaging in strenuous activity.

[BethS]

My personal solutions to this problem (worked for me, may not work for you!)

1) Large glass jars stuffed into the wrist gaskets and left there for several weeks; wrist gaskets, as mentioned above, should be comfortable, just barely snug enough to keep the water out but easy to get on and off. However you get there is fine!

2) a Greenland paddle! especially on windy days.... I hate to sound like a zealot about this, but it really makes a HUGE difference for many people.

3) a gradual weight training, core strengthening and stretching program to build balanced strength in my legs/hips/torso/shoulders/arms/wrists.

4) attention to biomechanics as mentioned above; and remember that the shoulders/arms/wrists are the last links in a bio-mechanical chain that actually starts at the hips and low back, so issues there may be affecting your paddling mechanics as well.

Edited September 24, 2015 by BethS

[Suz]

Be careful with ice and anti-inflammatories; they should only be used for acute injuries, not as prophylactic measures. The inflammatory response is what causes muscles and tendons to grow and strengthen, what's commonly known as the "training response". Anti-inflammatories and icing blunt this response and slow growth and healing. While they are beneficial when the inflammatory response gets out of control (strains, sprains, tendinitis, etc.), they should not be used for the normal aches and soreness caused by exercise. That minor soreness is a good thing, as it indicates that you exercised enough to do yourself some good.

Recent research on stretching has reversed long-held beliefs about its benefits. Stretching actually reduces the strength of muscles by up to 30%, so it should not be done before or during exercise. However, post-exercise stretching can be beneficial. The best way to avoid injuries is to warm up gradually and thoroughly before engaging in strenuous activity.

OMG - yet another thing Brian and I agree on!! This is exactly what my physical therapist explained. What I do now is make a ginger/turmeric "tea" and drink it daily. Just grate the ginger and fresh turmeric into the hot water and drink it regularly. Supposedly it is a very potent anti inflammatory without the side effects of ibuprofen.

[leong]

Recent research on stretching has reversed long-held beliefs about its benefits. Stretching actually reduces the strength of muscles by up to 30%, so it should not be done before or during exercise. However, post-exercise stretching can be beneficial. The best way to avoid injuries is to warm up gradually and thoroughly before engaging in strenuous activity.

I was under the impression that stretching before kayaking is the right thing to do, especially before a race. However, I usually forget to stretch. Does that mean that I don’t have to feel guilty anymore?

-Leon

[Inverseyourself]

We're getting off the original topic here with the subject of stretching (stretching muscles and ligaments that is, not stretching gaskets ) but it makies complete biomechanical sense that increased mobility in the shoulder joint through aggressive stretching can lead to shoulder positions in tricky situations (just because you can) that promote shoulder subluxation. That doesn't mean that one should race or paddle in conditions "cold", of course.

[4runner]

Getting back to the original subject- I recently installed the conical wrist gaskets. Took about a 1/2 hour.

I got them from Mythic Drysuits in Maine. Had them in 2 days for about $30 including shipping.

I've only used it two times but they're totally comfortable.

I have smallish wrists but I order the LARGE and I trimmed two rings off and have about 6 rings left.

The latex "seems" to b a little bit thicker than the original Kokatat gaskets.

We'll have to see how they hold up, but most important- they're comfortable!!

Good luck!

4R