22 replies to this topic

[djlewis]

How far apart should your hands be on the paddle?

I generally use the rule that it's about the width of your elbows, or equivalently, if you hold the paddle over your head, your elbows should be at roughly 90 degree angles. But Ben Lawry has a different method -- which I have forgotten -- involving, I think, forearm length and palm width. Anybody recall what Ben's method is? Or other opinions or ideas?

I understand that it's not exact, should vary a bit as you paddle, and will be determined differently with bent-shaft paddles (which I don't use)

Thanks. --David

[Sal]

I believe that Ben's formula is for the length of one cubit plus one fist between your hands. It seems to work out to be a little closer than the 90 deg rule of thumb.

[LHuntington]

Here's a good description for racing, or any distance/power stroke, (by Greg Barton and Oscar Chalupsky)

-Lisa

[djlewis]

Here's a good description for racing, or any distance/power stroke, (by Greg Barton and Oscar Chalupsky)

-Lisa

Thanks, Lisa. 75-90 degrees, typically 80, sounds about right to me, and that's what I use and teach.

I was specifically looking for Ben Lawry's method, however, since it's entirely different but, of course, comes out about the same for most people. Sal seems to have recalled it, and here's my detailed reconstruction (a cubit is an elbow-to-tip-of-hand measurement, in ancient times using the King's specs).

• Put one elbow on the shaft's center seam (or more accurately, the center of the shaft)
• Stretch that arm out along the shaft and grip with that hand where it falls
• With your other hand, grip the shaft just outside but snug against the first hand's grip
• That's where the second hand belongs
• Now let go with the first hand and grip symmetrically on the other end of the shaft.

I just tried that with a paddle, and it came out with an angle by the other method of slightly larger (wider) than 90 degrees, that is, outside ChalupskyBarton's range. Interesting. Well, you should always probably adjust a bit as you go, though Lawry does mark your paddle with yellow tape after using his method, as if to say, stick with that. Or maybe it's just a rough guide.

Lawry also has a way of having someone throw the paddle to you, you grab it in a particular way and go through some version of his sequence to get the placement. But I can't recall that at all.

Anyway, I wonder what kinds of bodies lead to what differences between the two methods. Presumably Lawry has that in mind when he prefers his method. The standard method (documented by Chalupsky and Barton) seems to use shoulder width and upper arm length, while Lawry's almost exclusively forearm length, with a bit of hand size influence. Neither, however, uses upper body height, which seems like an important factor to me, if you're going to this level of nuance, as that changes a lot about how you attack the water.

[LHuntington]

Neither, however, uses upper body height...

I would think you would adjust for upper body height by selecting the right paddle length.

[djlewis]

I would think you would adjust for upper body height by selecting the right paddle length.

Good point -- that adjusts the length of the paddle outside your hand grip points.

Which raises the question -- exactly what are the underlying factors that you are tuning when you change your grip width?

[subaruguru]

Although practice answers the ambiguity, newcomers might not understand which way the 75-90 deg is measured: paddle-shaft/forearm (where 75 is "wider"), or elbow/forearm (where 75 is "narrower").

[leong]

Good point -- that adjusts the length of the paddle outside your hand grip points.

Which raises the question -- exactly what are the underlying factors that you are tuning when you change your grip width?

Torque vs. cadence.

[djlewis]

Although practice answers the ambiguity, newcomers might not understand which way the 75-90 deg is measured: paddle-shaft/forearm (where 75 is "wider"), or elbow/forearm (where 75 is "narrower").

Ern: I've always assumed it was elbow/forearm, and said "elbow angle" to convey that.

Leon: I assume narrow ==> more torque; wide ==> better cadence -- right?

But it also seems like a torque/leverage issue. Otherwise, you'd go for max torque and put your hands very close together. But that decreases leverage, that is, the force you can apply to the shaft. That spectrum ought to be a fairly simple mechanics problem at about the freshman physics level. I have no idea how to handle cadence, however.

[LHuntington]

It's funny you bring this topic up - it's the thing I'm currently struggling with. I set my hands wider and they start sneaking towards the center within a few strokes. So I'm no expert, but...

It seems to me that when hands are far apart I get more out of the trunk muscles. Meaning I feel the stroke more in the obliques and less in the pecs. I would expect it to be the other way around - when the hands are wide you get more leverage from the top arm on the push. But that's what it feels like to me. Still working on it, though.

[djlewis]

It's funny you bring this topic up - it's the thing I'm currently struggling with. I set my hands wider and they start sneaking towards the center within a few strokes. So I'm no expert, but...

It seems to me that when hands are far apart I get more out of the trunk muscles. Meaning I feel the stroke more in the obliques and less in the pecs. I would expect it to be the other way around - when the hands are wide you get more leverage from the top arm on the push. But that's what it feels like to me. Still working on it, though.

That fits with my experience, both personal and when I give advice to others -- hands farther apart ==> more oomph from the lower back and hips. That's good, right? But there's obviously a limit.

[leong]

Leon: I assume narrow ==> more torque; wide ==> better cadence -- right?

But it also seems like a torque/leverage issue. Otherwise, you'd go for max torque and put your hands very close together. But that decreases leverage, that is, the force you can apply to the shaft. That spectrum ought to be a fairly simple mechanics problem at about the freshman physics level. I have no idea how to handle cadence, however.

Hmm, I think that I should have stated it this way:
Wide is like a lower gear and narrow is like a higher gear. I think that with narrow you can plant the blade farther forward. But you have less leverage to pull it back. I haven't seen this anywhere in the literature so I may be all wet (pun intended). Methinks that with wide you have a higher cadence and more torque but at the cost of stroke length. Does this make sense?

[MattD]

I attended Ben's forward stroke clinic at CRCK-Newton on 6/28 -- hand width measurement/setting is indeed 1 cubit + 1 palm width. We taped out the paddle shafts accordingly and removed our "uncool" drip rings, too . He was very specific about body mechanics -- the motion is primarily twisting and rotating lateral/oblique work, with very little shoulder/arm work ("pulling"), and no chest/pecs ("pushing"). The goal is to keep the paddle oriented vertically in the water from catch to exit. Pushing and pulling cause the paddle to angle, power is diverted up/down, and the boat yaws or pitches in response. The catch is close to the feet, exit begins at the knee and ends at the hip.

If you have a chance to take a class with Ben I highly recommend it -- I've been really trying to stick to his methodology and have noticed a considerable improvement in my time trials over the past week.

[LHuntington]

...and have noticed a considerable improvement in my time trials over the past week.

Ohh, No!...

-Lisa

[leong]

I attended Ben's forward stroke clinic at CRCK-Newton on 6/28 -- hand width measurement/setting is indeed 1 cubit + 1 palm width. We taped out the paddle shafts accordingly and removed our "uncool" drip rings, too . He was very specific about body mechanics -- the motion is primarily twisting and rotating lateral/oblique work, with very little shoulder/arm work ("pulling"), and no chest/pecs ("pushing"). The goal is to keep the paddle oriented vertically in the water from catch to exit. Pushing and pulling cause the paddle to angle, power is diverted up/down, and the boat yaws or pitches in response. The catch is close to the feet, exit begins at the knee and ends at the hip.

If you have a chance to take a class with Ben I highly recommend it -- I've been really trying to stick to his methodology and have noticed a considerable improvement in my time trials over the past week.

"the motion is primarily twisting and rotating lateral/oblique work, with very little shoulder/arm work ("pulling"), and no chest/pecs ("pushing")."

I know what you mean but this is not a good way to say it. All of your body parts are connected. The paddle can't come back unless one hand pulls it and the other hand pushes it. The hands are connected to the arms, etc.

Here's an analogy to show what I mean: A car is powered by its engine. But the wheels apply the force to the road.

With all due respect to Ben, I do think you get significant power from your arms and shoulders too. If not, I wonder why all of those Olympic kayakers have such muscular arms and shoulders? Are those big arms just excess weight?

[djlewis]

With all due respect to Ben, I do think you get significant power from your arms and shoulders too. If not, I wonder why all of those Olympic kayakers have such muscular arms and shoulders? Are those big arms just excess weight?

Isometrics? (Seriously)

[MattD]

The paddle can't come back unless one hand pulls it and the other hand pushes it. The hands are connected to the arms, etc.

See, that's the thing -- once the blade is planted in the water close to your feet, you set your lower arm in sort of a row form and literally sweep the blade along the side of the boat to your knee/hip by twisting. The only muscle work coming from your arm and shoulder muscles is in setting up the catch and ensuring the blade stays as vertical as possible in the water during your torso twist/rotation -- ie, you're not actively pulling the blade back with your arm muscles. Your top hand primarily guides the top blade of the paddle across the kayak, at eye/face-level -- ideally the top hand doesn't drop down as it crosses, it maintains a constant horizontal plane. So, in that regard, you're not pushing the top blade forward by using your arms and chest.

With all due respect to Ben, I do think you get significant power from your arms and shoulders too. If not, I wonder why all of those Olympic kayakers have such muscular arms and shoulders? Are those big arms just excess weight?

I'm not saying that there's zero arm/shoulder muscle use at all -- it's just minimized in Ben's particular approach in favor of larger core muscle use (plus leg muscles, which I didn't mention). Back in April I was talking to one of the surf ski guys at the Narrow River Race who competed in sprint kayaks when he was younger -- he mentioned that athletes used to be to develop a large upper body including arms and shoulders in order to "power through" the motion, but that the trend now is moving toward still-strong but much leaner muscular body mechanics due to the shift in focus to the "twisting core". That was my first introduction to the concept.

Absolutely one can paddle using primarily arms and shoulders and generate great speed, but it won't last over much of a distance -- the muscles are too small, have limited stores of energy to consume, and can't convert available fuel to new energy fast enough to keep up the pace.

[leong]

Absolutely one can paddle using primarily arms and shoulders and generate great speed, but it won't last over much of a distance -- the muscles are too small, have limited stores of energy to consume, and can't convert available fuel to new energy fast enough to keep up the pace.

Matt, I’m not saying to arm paddle. I basically agree with what you said (heck, it’s consistent with all the great paddler’s like Barton, Szolt, Chalupsky, etc.). All I’m saying is that all of the great paddler’s have very muscular arms and I think some of their power comes from their arms too. Obviously, most of the power comes from the trunk muscles. David is right, isometrics can account for some of the muscular development. But I doubt that all of it can. I’ve watched the Brent Reitz and Szolt videos of the forward stroke dozens of time. Despite what they say, to me, it looks like biceps are being used to pull the paddle back (yes, mostly trunk muscles). But however you say it, I think the arms need to be strong to be a world class paddler.

Good luck July 14’th – I’ll be there too. My advice: don’t burn out in the Annisquam. In past races I’ve regained my position once I got into Ipswich Bay. Of course, I’ve never come close to first place.

Leon

[leong]

PS
This is my favorite forward stroke video http://www.superiors...troke-technique

Zsolt uses his trunk muscles more that anyone I've ever seen. Almost no arm bending at all.

[leong]

PPS

Matt,

Regarding trunk rotation here’s some additional information:

Brent Reitz says here http://www.wildsprin...forward_stroke/

” Here's the trick to avoid excess hull movement: Think to yourself, “sit flat". In order to sit flat and apply pressure not only with the same-side leg, but also with the same-side paddle-blade, we need to make a subtle body movement.

That movement is cheek-lift. In order to stabilize the boat while driving with your legs you need to subtly “lift yo cheek off da seat!”

I find the above (and rotation in general from down low in the spine) very difficult in any kayak that doesn’t allow you to use a center position for your knees. For instance, my QCC 700X has thigh braces and foot pegs/steering pegs on each side of the hull. There’s no room to place my knees in the center, even if I installed a footbar. On the other hand, if there were no thigh braces, I would have a hard time rolling, since there would be no really good place to grip the boat for the hip snap. Ask, Lisa, she has a QCC 600X sans the thigh braces. It gives her the ability to use a center-knees paddling position with a footbar, but it’s a lot more difficult to grip the boat for rolling. She and I can roll it, but it’s a lot harder to do without the better grip on the thigh braces.

My other kayak, the Epic 18X, seems to be the only racing kayak that solves the problem very nicely. As the 18X user guide says,
“The thigh braces on an Epic kayak are molded under the deck of the cockpit.
Paddlers can lock their knees under the thigh braces for rough water performance, or keep their knees
centered in the middle of the cockpit to incorporate leg movement for more efficiency and power.”

I’ve found this to be correct. But when you capsize in rough water you have to bring your knees out fast enough to grip for the hip snap. I failed this a couple of times in a combat situation. But in practice it works … guess I need to practice more to get this into my muscle memory.

I’m off to da riva now to do a light workout.

Hope some of this was useful (I’ve been racing since 1998).

Leon