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Giving back to the sport


josko

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I would like to give back to the sport of sea kayaking and would like some feedback on how to do it effectively., I'm an AMC sea kayak leader and have been running AMC L2 and L3 trips for a few years now. It's a little frustrating to see the same ~dozen people show up for trip after trip, and I get this sense I'd like to do something else, but not sure what.

I think it would be good to get more people involved with Sea Kayaking. AMC's huge membership must for a good core of potentials, but I'm not sure how to introduce/involve more people. I'll try more beginner classes and clinics, but am unsure of both how to recruit/find people for these, and how to encourage people to maintain their involvement.

AMC could be an intermediary between potentially interested people and paddling clubs, but can't quite flesh out this thought into concrete actions to do this summer.

I post this as the annual AMC SK leaders' mtg is coming up, and I'd like to do what I can to not come up with the same trips for the same folks this year as we did in the past.

Yes, we (AMC Boston chapter) do run beginner instruction clinics and the annual 'leaders' tuneup' weekend, which is really a 2* class, but IMHO, we're not doing much for the sport.

Anyone with ideas?

Edited by josko
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Josko,

I share your interest in finding ways to give back to our sport of sea kayaking. It seems to me you are highly skilled in the following three areas; 1. Kayak camping, 2. Kayak expeditions, 3. Off season kayaking.

When you look at the trips/events being offered through the seven major sea kayaking clubs in our communities, there seems to be a shortage of trip leaders with your skills. Have you thought about helping our community of paddlers take it to the next level and beyond?

From my experience, those paddlers are out there and they tend to already possess good skills and some equipment. They are wicked fun to work with, but it does take time and effort.

I sense there are numerous trip leaders who are ready to help the beginners, but not as many like yourself who have invested in acquiring the skills and gear to “get out there and stay out”!

Food for thought?

Warren

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Warren, well, yeah, maybe, but the whole BCU cert. thing comes to mind. One needs 5* coach to coach that kind of stuff, and all I have is 4* sea. I've already gotten nasty-grams from local coaches complaining I'm coaching above my certification.

Not at all sure where clubs fit wrt BCU coaching requirements.

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Josko,

Several years ago, after I had been kayaking for a few years, had good flat water rescue skills and somewhat of a roll, I saw a one day class offered by AMC NH that was titled something like "ocean skills" or "rough water skills." - something along those lines. It was geared to people who already could do rescues, but wanted to and were ready to go out on the ocean and try their skills in rougher water under the guidance of skilled paddlers. The class also offered an introduction to currents, and touched on the very basics of charts and navigation. The class was held off of Portsmouth with skills practiced In Little Harbor, around the Wentworth bridge and off of Whaleback Light (we had nice 2+ ft. chop to play in,) and it was very well attended. Having that exposure boosted the confidence of the people attending and for some lessened the fear of paddling on the ocean. For me, I had already been paddling on the ocean, but in pretty much protected areas. This is class ignited the fire learn more, ramp up the skills, and push the comfort zone.

I feel that a class like this is so valualble in bringing paddlers to the next level. There are many paddlers, in NSPN and in the several large paddling Meetup Groups in our area, who can do rescues and have some decent equipment, and who would love to try sea kayaking, but are a little intimidated. They paddle with group of friends and all have similar skill sets; they have no one with the experience to take them to the next level. The AMC class was advertised on several Meetup sites and there was a fee to take the class. AMC membership was not required. Unfortunately, the class was not offered again after I took it, and the sea kayaking component of the NH chapter has faded away. The class was a nice stepping stone from the world of L2 paddling to the world of L3 and beyond and to more formalized training and lessons.

It might be an idea to start with something like this and then tie some trips to it. Something to think about.

Liz

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In reading your reply to Warren - no paddling skills were taught, per se. You had to already have rescue skills to participate - the "class" was a chance for you to go out and try different rescue skills in bigger conditions with someone who had the experience to help you if you got in trouble. There was a little instruction about entering currents and ferrying across a current, though.

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. One needs 5* coach to coach that kind of stuff, and all I have is 4* sea. I've already gotten nasty-grams from local coaches complaining I'm coaching above my certification.

Josko:

This is not correct. If you look at the 4 and 5 * syllibii you will see they expressly state the a * award is not suitable for coaching beginners to the sport. Note the strong language "not suitable". * awards are awards for demonstrating paddling and leadership skills at different levels. It has nothing to do with coaching which is why the BCU has a totally dofferent track for coaching.

I'm not saying anyone who is competent paddler and may have had that competence recognized by a BCU * award cannot or should not help others with acquiring skills, but to coach is something else.

Ed Lawson

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Josko, giving back to the sport has many avenues, and the presentation of your expedition trip is one of them, so don't discount that. However, if you want a more hands-on approach, you might consider volunteering at some of the events geared towards bringing people into the sport, such as the New To Sea Kayaking Workshop, helping out at the annual CAM classroom and on-water sessions, and so on.

Warren, well, yeah, maybe, but the whole BCU cert. thing comes to mind. One needs 5* coach to coach that kind of stuff, and all I have is 4* sea. I've already gotten nasty-grams from local coaches complaining I'm coaching above my certification.

Not at all sure where clubs fit wrt BCU coaching requirements.

There is a very fine line between coaching and providing timely tips and tricks when leading - something I am still trying to figure out for my self. I would recommend against providing any type of "class", but instead offer trips that allow people to utilize and stretch the skills they already have. Find some other competent paddlers to work with, and offer limited sized trip in "more dynamic conditions" with the specific purpose of allowing participants to put to use skills that they already have, but aren't willing to use without the oversight of more knowledgeable paddlers.

There are many paddlers, in NSPN and in the several large paddling Meetup Groups in our area, who can do rescues and have some decent equipment, and who would love to try sea kayaking, but are a little intimidated. They paddle with group of friends and all have similar skill sets; they have no one with the experience to take them to the next level.

I find this to be a really frustrating statement since I feel that there are a number of paddlers out there looking for people to want to expand their skills. However, I also remember back when I joined the club - Cathy and I didn't have a group of friends to paddle with, so we were forced to join whatever trip we thought we might be able to survive. Along the way, we have learned a lot, made some friends, and even though we do often paddle together by ourselves, we still strive to give back as often as we can. But, the only way we got to where we are now is by stepping forward and taking the opportunities that were available. You can not force people to do that, you can only provide the opportunities and hope that they show up.

Josko, I would say not to give up on what you are already doing. Sure, you may be seeing the same dozen people year after year, but look harder for the one fresh face that might show up every now and again. Those are the opportunities to discover new talent waiting to be nurtured. Also, if you post a trip that is designed to help people to expand their skills, proceed with the trip even if you only get a bare minimum of participation. Having trips like that cancelled for "low level of interest" was really a disappointment for Cathy and I early on.

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Josko:

Just to reinforce what Rob has said. There are many ways to provide services to the club and sport. Not all or perhaps even most of them involve on the water activities. I don't believe there is a big need to hold "classes" for skill development as such. Nor is there a need to plan trips that have the avowed purpose of teaching people how to handle "conditions" or move from "L2 to L3" paddles...whatever those terms may mean. There are many opportunities for people with adequate interest to obtain professional training. Instead, just post interesting trips and/or go along on trips posted by others and along the way provide helpful hints to those who are open to being helped. One way to contribute is to go on trips that you might think beneath your skill level so you are there to mentor explicitly or simply by example. Folks should not have to sign up to go on a paddle over their comfort zone or which is posted to challenge or improve skills to gain experience and skills from the more skilled paddlers in the club. It should be a natural outgrowth of members participating in club paddles.

When you think about it, it is a rather sad state of affairs if a group of paddlers of all abilities cannot enjoy a trip together and along the way get to know and help each other grow as paddlers. Less skilled paddlers gain skills, more skilled paddlers gain skills. They might be gaining different skills, but both are helping the other gain skills.

Ed Lawson

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Josko, I would say not to give up on what you are already doing. Sure, you may be seeing the same dozen people year after year, but look harder for the one fresh face that might show up every now and again. Those are the opportunities to discover new talent waiting to be nurtured. Also, if you post a trip that is designed to help people to expand their skills, proceed with the trip even if you only get a bare minimum of participation. Having trips like that cancelled for "low level of interest" was really a disappointment for Cathy and I early on.

So true - don't cancel just because only 1 or 2 people responded. They're the 1 or 2 that were brave enough to move beyond their fears and intimidation and will be most open to learning.

Josko:

Just to reinforce what Rob has said. There are many ways to provide services to the club and sport. Not all or perhaps even most of them involve on the water activities. I don't believe there is a big need to hold "classes" for skill development as such. Nor is there a need to plan trips that have the avowed purpose of teaching people how to handle "conditions" or move from "L2 to L3" paddles...whatever those terms may mean. There are many opportunities for people with adequate interest to obtain professional training. Instead, just post interesting trips and/or go along on trips posted by others and along the way provide helpful hints to those who are open to being helped. One way to contribute is to go on trips that you might think beneath your skill level so you are there to mentor explicitly or simply by example. Folks should not have to sign up to go on a paddle over their comfort zone or which is posted to challenge or improve skills to gain experience and skills from the more skilled paddlers in the club. It should be a natural outgrowth of members participating in club paddles.

When you think about it, it is a rather sad state of affairs if a group of paddlers of all abilities cannot enjoy a trip together and along the way get to know and help each other grow as paddlers. Less skilled paddlers gain skills, more skilled paddlers gain skills. They might be gaining different skills, but both are helping the other gain skills.

Ed Lawson

Ed - this is so true - and you live this.

I remember one specific trip from Portsmouth to Rye during which you took me in hand (paddle) and encouraged me to paddle where I was uncomfortable, providing advice along the way to show me that I would not die if I paddled there. It was a great example of a more learned paddler offering some support and advice to a newer paddler on a regular trip (one not posted as a 'training'). So thank you!

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Josko:

This is not correct. If you look at the 4 and 5 * syllibii you will see they expressly state the a * award is not suitable for coaching beginners to the sport. Note the strong language "not suitable". * awards are awards for demonstrating paddling and leadership skills at different levels. It has nothing to do with coaching which is why the BCU has a totally dofferent track for coaching.

I'm not saying anyone who is competent paddler and may have had that competence recognized by a BCU * award cannot or should not help others with acquiring skills, but to coach is something else.

Ed Lawson

Ed, you're 100% right and I expressed myself badly. BCU coaching and skills ladders are indeed distinct and different. I suppose the spirit of the separation is that a 4* sea paddler can take out a group of paddlers and help them be safe, but not 'coach' them in terms of offering technique tips or advice while underway.

Oops, I posted this from Mel's account - Josko.

Edited by Mel
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Actually, Josko, the leadership/coaching line is much finer. A BCU 4* or 5* paddler is supposed to provide tips and advice while underway, but not to actually coach or train others. The distinction is small, but the way I understand it is that you might remind people to rotate during their forward stroke, or suggest that they may want to deploy their skeg at a certain moment. What you are not supposed to do is to teach the forward stroke to someone who does not know it, or explain why the skeg is being deployed in order to have a particular effect on the boat. I hope the differences are clear, even though they are subtle. As I said, it's a fine line!

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Josko,

Maybe part of the problem is that the people you are inspiring need to step up and thank you once in a while! I am guilty here; the fabulous trip report that you and your partner gave of your trip to Labrador last summer was one of the things that inspired me to go for it and get involved with going to Alaska this coming summer. So a very belated but heartfelt "thanks!" to you both for that! Often people just take trip leaders for granted; and if the same people keep coming back to your trips year after year they are obviously having a good time...

I'd say keep doing what you most enjoy sharing about the sport, whether it is a favorite spot to return to, or a new and more challenging spot to explore. If you are excited about trip(s) you are leading, it will be rewarding both for you and for the participants.

As far as specific suggestions go, I'm not sure what trips you have been leading in the past, but it does seem to me that there are not a lot of leaders willing/able to lead longer/more complicated trips, i.e. multi-day expedition style up the coast of Maine, going to Nova Scotia, etc. Usually people who want to do such a trip arrange it on their own with friends, which is great but can be a bit daunting especially the first time. If you had an interest in doing a longer trip, with the add on of helping participants learn about planning a kayak expedition, (not coaching mind you, just friendly advice!) I'm guessing you might have some interest. Of course participants would have to be carefully screened (as for any trip) but a multiday trip does not need to involve a lot of risky paddling conditions, there are many fine longer trip options along this coast for solid level three paddlers.

Edited by BethS
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Thanks again for all the replies. I do run a fair number of trips for the AMC. perhaps my annual favorite is the L2 'Introduction to Woods Hole' where I've found a safe way to introduce L2 paddlers to the very dynamic current environment of Woods Hole. (I've attached my last year's trip sheet.) I'll run it again this year in mid-June - it's VERY dependent on tides.

Along those lines, I've been scouting NSPN's forums for a couple of years hoping to find interesting trips to join, and haven't done very well at all. It would seem very few trips are run given such an active web site.

Hadleys Harbor Trip sheet 62114.pdf

Edited by josko
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Thanks again for all the replies. I do run a fair number of trips for the AMC. perhaps my annual favorite is the L2 'Introduction to Woods Hole' where I've found a safe way to introduce L2 paddlers to the very dynamic current environment of Woods Hole. (I've attached my last year's trip sheet.) I'll run it again this year in mid-June - it's VERY dependent on tides.

Along those lines, I've been scouting NSPN's forums for a couple of years hoping to find interesting trips to join, and haven't done very well at all. It would seem very few trips are run given such an active web site.

Many trips are among friends and are not posted.

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Josko,

Is your co-leader (Jeff Parker) the guy on the National Team and my ole paddling buddy on the Concord River?

-Leon

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My experience is also that trips are kind of few and far between on this site, I'm thinking that the new meetup page will be a great resource for organizing such events, I know I check it frequently for many kayaking groups. I do appreciate more experienced paddlers taking me "under their wing" and showing me some great spots.

Phil

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Warren, well, yeah, maybe, but the whole BCU cert. thing comes to mind. One needs 5* coach to coach that kind of stuff, and all I have is 4* sea. I've already gotten nasty-grams from local coaches complaining I'm coaching above my certification.

Not at all sure where clubs fit wrt BCU coaching requirements.

Disclaimer: I have not sought any BCU or ACA certification. I am not a lawyer. I am not an officer of NSPN or the AMC.

I know of no legal requirement in the USA to hold a BCU certification to coach kayaking for free. Though I believe you would need to be a Maine Guide to receive any remuneration for accompanying or assisting a kayaker in Maine. Nor so far as I know does NSPN or the AMC require any BCU certification to coach kayaking. The NH AMC White Water school normally announces that the instructors are generally NOT certified coaches, just fellow paddlers trying to pass it forward.

However, when you applied for a BCU certification you might have agreed to comply with BCU policies. Those policies might require you to hold whatever BCU coaching certification is required by BCU for the coaching you wish to perform.

http://www.canoe-england.org.uk/coaching/coaches-responsibilities/

Includes the line:

When Coaches register for Coaching Awards using the C1 or CR form they sign a declaration agreeing the BCU Coaching Code and respective policies

I don't know, but I would not be surprised if the BCU 4* sea paperwork required you to make a similar declaration. That would give other BCU coaches who know you have a BCU certification a basis for their nasty-grams that you were not complying with your agreement with BCU. Some commercial coaches who have spent considerable time and money obtaining and maintaining their BCU coaching certifications tend to be quite sensitive about people "cheating" by coaching above their certification level.

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A wide ranging discussion for sure. I applaud your desire to give back to a sport that you clearly enjoy. I guess the relevant question is what would specifically make you feel good. If it's showing folks new places, maybe continue to expand yourguiding roles. If it's helping students acquire new skill, maybe do some instructor training and continue your teaching. I know that I've gotten a lot of benefit from the animations you've done of some of the more dynamic areas we paddle.

Best

Phil

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Disclaimer: I have not sought any BCU or ACA certification. I am not a lawyer. I am not an officer of NSPN or the AMC.

I know of no legal requirement in the USA to hold a BCU certification to coach kayaking for free. Though I believe you would need to be a Maine Guide to receive any remuneration for accompanying or assisting a kayaker in Maine. Nor so far as I know does NSPN or the AMC require any BCU certification to coach kayaking. The NH AMC White Water school normally announces that the instructors are generally NOT certified coaches, just fellow paddlers trying to pass it forward.

However, when you applied for a BCU certification you might have agreed to comply with BCU policies. Those policies might require you to hold whatever BCU coaching certification is required by BCU for the coaching you wish to perform.

http://www.canoe-england.org.uk/coaching/coaches-responsibilities/

Includes the line:

I don't know, but I would not be surprised if the BCU 4* sea paperwork required you to make a similar declaration. That would give other BCU coaches who know you have a BCU certification a basis for their nasty-grams that you were not complying with your agreement with BCU. Some commercial coaches who have spent considerable time and money obtaining and maintaining their BCU coaching certifications tend to be quite sensitive about people "cheating" by coaching above their certification level.

The BCU was created around local paddling clubs and bringing new people up into the sport. It's not about restricting learning, far from it.

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My experience is also that trips are kind of few and far between on this site, I'm thinking that the new meetup page will be a great resource for organizing such events, I know I check it frequently for many kayaking groups. I do appreciate more experienced paddlers taking me "under their wing" and showing me some great spots.

Phil

Phil, and club members,

I did my best to introduce Meetup to the club. Many of you already know of its existence but most of you don't. A premature automated launch of the "NSPN Meetup" that I created without full support of the BOD caused a bit of a rift within the Board of Directors which I am no longer a part of. I do hope the Board agrees to move forward with the the NSPN Meetup. I understand a committee has been formed to analyze its pros and cons and although it can be viewed, it has been put on hold and accepts no new members for now.

Utilizing Meetup as a way to post trips and events is in my opinion essential in today's social media trend and will help NSPN maintain its presense in the local paddling crowd. NSPN currently has one of the best kayaking forums around and is read coast to coast but it has not proven to be a successful venue for posting trips and events these days or get the attention of new paddlers.

I hope some of you can perhaps see the value of an NSPN Meetup and sound in here with your thoughts on the matter.

I see no reason why this should remain a secret as it effects all club members.

I have found it rewarding to be a Board member all these years but everything has a life cycle and my involvement with the Board has come to an end. I will find other ways to give back to the kayaking community now.

Josko, my apologies for semi-hijacking your topic here but I think there is a connection to having a Meetup venue. I believe it could perpetuate the clubs activities and bring in new paddlers that will need mentoring from the more experienced among us.

Doug

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My experience is also that trips are kind of few and far between on this site, I'm thinking that the new meetup page will be a great resource for organizing such events, I know I check it frequently for many kayaking groups. I do appreciate more experienced paddlers taking me "under their wing" and showing me some great spots.

Phil

I don't know what constitutes "few and far between", but I did a rough count last night and there were about 45 trips of a tremendous variety posted by 17 people last year, and only 10 people posted more than one trip. My point is, I am not sure MeetUp is going to produce more trips, but more likely just add more paddlers who will be looking to the same 15-20 people to do all the work of planning and managing trips.

This brings us back to Josko's question of giving back to the sport. Many in the sport have gotten to where we are because people were willing to take us out and help us learn and grow. The best way to give back is to do the same - post some trips, take people out, and nurture the next group of great paddlers.

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I don't know what constitutes "few and far between", but I did a rough count last night and there were about 45 trips of a tremendous variety posted by 17 people last year, and only 10 people posted more than one trip. My point is, I am not sure MeetUp is going to produce more trips, but more likely just add more paddlers who will be looking to the same 15-20 people to do all the work of planning and managing trips.

This brings us back to Josko's question of giving back to the sport. Many in the sport have gotten to where we are because people were willing to take us out and help us learn and grow. The best way to give back is to do the same - post some trips, take people out, and nurture the next group of great paddlers.

I would like to second Rob's point here. I would encourage NSPN members who have gained some skills - either from participation in club activities or BCU/ACA training - and have never planned and posted a trip to make a commitment to doing so this season. Whether it's through Meetup, if the club chooses to go that way, or through the existing trips forum, it's not hard to do!

pru

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I must be looking in the wrong place - where were these 45 trips posted? Are they in 'Trips/NSPN Events' or do I need to look elsewhere?

To answer another question, I'd like to introduce more paddlers to the sport. it seems there are adequate paddling trips for L2+ folks, but there seems to be (IMHO) an entry gap between novices with no skills and equipment and the level commonly seen at club trips.

Also, I wonder if it makes sense to set up some sort of a collaboration between clubs, say AMC, NSPN, Wild Turkeys, RICKA, etc? I kind of seeing the AMC as helping people with that first step and ten vectoring them to clubs such as NSPN. RICKA already does this quite well with AMC Narra. bay chapter. My current plan is to try to expand AMC entry level/novice instruction and try to help and encourage them to become L2 paddlers.

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To the NSPN Community,

Hey Rob, you rascal you, I detect a challenge in your posting above. I believe you are seeking members within our club to reach out in some fashion to post trips, organize workshops or mentor another paddler. There are many different ways to give back to our community. The key is to find what works for you, step to the plate and get it done! That is what I heard when I read your posting and the other postings on this thread.

So………in keeping with Josko’s original theme, I will take up the challenge with a mentoring opportunity for a member of our NSPN community.

I seek one paddler with intermediate level paddling skills who would like to learn kayak camping. I am currently planning three private kayak camping trips to occur in April and May. You will be included in those plans and will be surrounded by several other knowledgeable kayak campers.

Keep in mind, kayaking in the early spring can be hazardous. You will need a dry suit and all appropriate paddling gear for cold water immersion. If you need additional gear, I may be able to loan you what you need. Rob tell me I have more gear than the Kittery Trading Post and I am happy to fully equip you for kayak camping. You will need to be a paid member of NSPN as well as a paid member in the Maine Island Trail Association (MITA).

I am an intermediate level paddler, BCU 3 Star, Registered Maine Guide in Sea Kayaking, Wilderness First Responder and a Master’s level trained educator. I love to teach and help sea kayakers discover the joy in kayak camping off the coast of Maine as well as in Prince William Sound, Alaska.

If this is an opportunity you seek, PM me and we can discuss your interest. This opportunity will be handled on a first come first served basis.

So there you have it………. Who will be the next to step to the plate?

Warren

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Despite the feet of snow in my yard and ice on the lakes, I know warmer weather is on the way as the surest sign of Spring has just arrived. The annual NSPN discussion about the lack or not of posted trips as well as the angst over who does or does not post trips and how to remedy perceived problems of both.

Ed Lawson

The Devil made me do it

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