nau Posted August 3, 2009 Share Posted August 3, 2009 Out of curiosity, would anyone know in which year Valley first produced the Pintail? It has to be after 1985 (not in that year's catalog, available here: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=47731&p=367244&hilit=valley+1985#p367244) and before or in 1993 (I know of a 93). I asked on the UK Rivers forum but no one seems to remember. I am trying to put a time line on them. We know they first changed shape in 1995, then again in (?) which has to be after 1999 (I know of a 1999 which seems smaller than recent ones). Thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pintail Posted August 3, 2009 Share Posted August 3, 2009 The person with whom you <need> to communicate is one Brian Nystrom, who has had a Pintail for longer than most others around here. True, I also own one; but am unable to ellucidate...(mine is dated 1998, according to the serial number). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nau Posted August 3, 2009 Author Share Posted August 3, 2009 Working link to the 1985 Valley catalog: http://www.ukseakayakguidebook.co.uk/short...ey_brochure.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deb Millar Posted August 3, 2009 Share Posted August 3, 2009 My husband Bob C has a 1991 Pintail, which I guess is a Classic. It doesn't have a day hatch, has an ocean cockpit, and rope skeg. It also has beautiful lines, but I think that's a Valley characteristic. Great boat, fun to paddle, and a real rock/surf hound. I second Christopher's opinion about Brian Nystrom knowing his Valley boats... Deb M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djlewis Posted August 3, 2009 Share Posted August 3, 2009 ...True, I also own one; but am unable to ellucidate... I can't believe Mr. Perfect Brit Grammar, Usage and Spelling has made an ugly spelling error -- it's elucidate, Sir Godfrey, one L. Switch to Firefox and get spelling correction on all your posts. But that does bring up the old Ogden Nash poem... The one-L lama, he's a priest The two-L llama, he's a beast And I would bet a silk pyjama There isn't any three-L lllama To which the Bostonian replies, hey, what about a big fire -- a three-alamah! --David. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
subaruguru Posted August 3, 2009 Share Posted August 3, 2009 I can't believe Mr. Perfect Brit Grammar, Usage and Spelling has made an ugly spelling error -- it's elucidate, Sir Godfrey, one L. Switch to Firefox and get spelling correction on all your posts. But that does bring up the old Ogden Nash poem... The one-L lama, he's a priest The two-L llama, he's a beast And I would bet a silk pyjama There isn't any three-L lllama To which the Bostonian replies, hey, what about a big fire -- a three-alamah! --David. David, I didn't know he was from Southie! Thought of you yesterday when an '01 Legacy Wag with RIGHT hand drive, and sourced from the old Cityside in Arlington stole a parking space from me in Powerscourt south of Dublin. I was too astonished to holler... Ern Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bazzert Posted August 3, 2009 Share Posted August 3, 2009 Thought of you yesterday when an '01 Legacy Wag with RIGHT hand drive, and sourced from the old Cityside in Arlington stole a parking space from me in Powerscourt south of Dublin. I was too astonished to holler... Did you get to talk to them ? Former colleagues of mine (John & Aisling) bought a RH Outback here, before moving back to Dublin. Even with the ~ $1000 shipping cost it was considerably cheaper than sourcing there. They live in south county Dublin. Barry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Nystrom Posted August 5, 2009 Share Posted August 5, 2009 My husband Bob C has a 1991 Pintail, which I guess is a Classic. It doesn't have a day hatch, has an ocean cockpit, and rope skeg. It also has beautiful lines, but I think that's a Valley characteristic. Great boat, fun to paddle, and a real rock/surf hound. I second Christopher's opinion about Brian Nystrom knowing his Valley boats... Deb M I think Deb and Bob have hit the jackpot. Linda and I both have '93 Pintails and IIRC, the earliest ones I've seen have been '91's. That's hardly definitive, but it should be pretty close. Then again, it seems unlikely that they would come out with a boat in '91 and redesign it in '95 (and not for the better IMO). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nau Posted August 5, 2009 Author Share Posted August 5, 2009 Thank you Brian. Maybe one day someone will do out of sheer love a history of Valley and the industry around it, as it was done for Chestnut Canoes by Roger MacGregor. Regarding modifications, boat designers having a hard time leaving their moulds alone is not new. I remember a thread in which Peter Orton compared the first Sirius and Capellas to more recent ones - looks like he too preferred the old ones. Funnily enough, there was recently an article in the UK with pictures from a Valley plant. The plug pictured was one undergoing modifications… http://www.canoekayak.co.uk/categories/art...24&item=174 When the Pintail came out it was probably compared to the Romany (same Anas Acuta origin). Depending on market reception and comments, maybe they felt the need to tame it a bit? And after two iterations, they came out with the Avocet, which maybe a bit closer to the Romany? Just speculating… Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Nystrom Posted August 5, 2009 Share Posted August 5, 2009 When the Pintail came out it was probably compared to the Romany (same Anas Acuta origin). Depending on market reception and comments, maybe they felt the need to tame it a bit? And after two iterations, they came out with the Avocet, which maybe a bit closer to the Romany? Just speculating… Well, they did make the new version more Romany-esque, with fuller bilges, an arched aft deck and the option of a keyhole cockpit, but the boats are still very different in look, feel and performance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EEL Posted August 5, 2009 Share Posted August 5, 2009 Well, they did make the new version more Romany-esque, with fuller bilges, an arched aft deck and the option of a keyhole cockpit, Brian: As I recall you also have an AA and based on my 2004 version it also started with or got an arched back deck along the way. As well as a day hatch which is a PITA at times. It seems folks have speculated and swapped pictures of hull changes in the AA as well and often in a confusing manner. I wonder how many molds there are and what the unintended variations might be from boat to boat. Arched deck is one thing, variations in hull shape might be something else. I too doubt they set out to make it more Romany like, but stranger things have happened. Ed Lawson Ed Lawson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisM Posted August 6, 2009 Share Posted August 6, 2009 I was listening to an interview with Nigel Dennis on Seakayakroutes.com and he mentioned a small bit of history about the Pintail. Unfortunately, no dates where mentioned. When Nigel first opened the centre, he was using Valley kayaks and, after some time, decided that he wanted a "school boat". He spoke with the owner of Valley (Frank Goodman?) about making some changes to the Anas Acuta. Frank agreed and the Pintail was born. Nigel used the Pintail for a while, then he decided he wanted to build his own boats. So, he spoke with Mike Webb (now with Rockpool Kayaks) who had a shed at the centre where he made boards for windsurfing. There he started making Nigels new kayak - the Romany. It was interesting hearing this since my ca. 1996 Romany Explorer has a sticker on the inside stating that it was made by Webb. I know it doesn't answer your original question, but I found this bit of kayak history interesting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wilsoj2 Posted August 6, 2009 Share Posted August 6, 2009 According to Aled Williams (who was the designer along with Nigel of the Romany) they started from a Pintail mold and modified from that starting point. That was around 1993. Aled can fill in details <tideraceseakayaks@yahoo.co.uk> Peter Orton has spoken of doing a history of Valley boats and is quite knowledgeable <peter@valleyseakayaks.com> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Nystrom Posted August 6, 2009 Share Posted August 6, 2009 Brian: As I recall you also have an AA and based on my 2004 version it also started with or got an arched back deck along the way. As well as a day hatch which is a PITA at times. It seems folks have speculated and swapped pictures of hull changes in the AA as well and often in a confusing manner. I wonder how many molds there are and what the unintended variations might be from boat to boat. Arched deck is one thing, variations in hull shape might be something else. Yeah, the AA seems to have had at least three major variations, though the change around '95 seems to only have been to the deck, adding the arch aft. I think that's also when they switched to a cable skeg, but I'm not absolutely sure. AFAIK, the Pintail has only had two hull versions and the deck changes were made at the same time the hull was changed, so there are really only two versions of the boat. Of course, with both boats there are individual variations that were custom made for customers with various pump, hatch, compass recess and deck fitting arrangements. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rick stoehrer Posted August 6, 2009 Share Posted August 6, 2009 I was listening to an interview with Nigel Dennis on Seakayakroutes.com and he mentioned a small bit of history about the Pintail. Unfortunately, no dates where mentioned. When Nigel first opened the centre, he was using Valley kayaks and, after some time, decided that he wanted a "school boat". He spoke with the owner of Valley (Frank Goodman?) about making some changes to the Anas Acuta. Frank agreed and the Pintail was born. Nigel used the Pintail for a while, then he decided he wanted to build his own boats. So, he spoke with Mike Webb (now with Rockpool Kayaks) who had a shed at the centre where he made boards for windsurfing. There he started making Nigels new kayak - the Romany. It was interesting hearing this since my ca. 1996 Romany Explorer has a sticker on the inside stating that it was made by Webb. I know it doesn't answer your original question, but I found this bit of kayak history interesting. and to further the trivia....if you go to the paddlers retreat pub in holyhead, wales...there is a sample of those early boats with the first day hatches suspended from the ceiling. th bet is to climb up into the suspended boat and drink your pint while sitting there, upside down. just try THAT at a bar in the US.....you'd end up in the klink faster'n spit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nau Posted August 6, 2009 Author Share Posted August 6, 2009 AFAIK, the Pintail has only had two hull versions I mentioned a possible third "post 99" version, bigger than the version #2 from 1995, because it has come up in a number of posts and in conversations I've had (with an ex-Pintail owner, a great trader of used boats, saying "I could have sworn my old 99 Pintail was smaller than the recent ones"). I have not yet been able to verify this personnally though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Sylvester Posted August 6, 2009 Share Posted August 6, 2009 AFAIK, the Pintail has only had two hull versions I mentioned a possible third "post 99" version, bigger than the version #2 from 1995, because it has come up in a number of posts and in conversations I've had (with an ex-Pintail owner, a great trader of used boats, saying "I could have sworn my old 99 Pintail was smaller than the recent ones"). I have not yet been able to verify this personnally though. I heard from a source that when they wanted something more than the AA they, Goodman /Valley took an AA and floated bondo or something from chine to chine to get a rounded shape. From there they could test it and then start the mold- plug process. Will travel to buy old Brit boats that are beat, old and tired... Was in one of the early AA's once.....real neat.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wilsoj2 Posted August 7, 2009 Share Posted August 7, 2009 "...when they wanted something more than the AA they, Goodman /Valley took an AA and floated bondo or something from chine to chine to get a rounded shape." And Aled noted that when designing the Romany they (he and Nigel) wanted to harden up the chines of the Pintail they used battens to modify the mold. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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